quote:

Originally posted by Chris Dierl:
Bill H., I see you are in El Segundo. (As a full time musician, I have worked many times at the Old Town Music Hall.) Any recommended shops for engine work? (Ford 460 pusher)
Thanks,
CZD

Sorry about the hill, Chris.

I can't recommend any engine shops simply because I either do my own rebuilding or buy a new factory motor. The good news is that the engine should be fairly easy to remove. I have heard good things about Jasper having a good warranty.

Now would be a good time to look at the cooling system. Talk to US Radiator. How is the radiator cooled? I know nothing about Fords or pushers, but my free advice costs only a cold soda water with half a lime in it. I have a friend near Long Beach I visit now and then, so maybe some weekday early in the afternoon I can take a look at the cooling setup and offer some more advice to ignore.

How mechanical are you?

What kind of music do you play? We go to OTMH a lot. We like a lot of the music they book there. I believe they still use my old Altec A7 Voice of the Theater systems there. Better crossovers than Altecs, if I may brag. Horn tweeters get real crabby about the human voice at lower crossover frequencies.

Bill,

Jasper who?

Please do come by to see the Barth. I tried e-mailing you, but the address listed on your profile bounced on me. Mine will work if you would like to contact me to set up a time. I'm usually home during the day.

I used to race Pro-Rally, before getting married and buying a house, so I have a pretty good understanding of what goes where, and why, mechanically. I find that tearing up my hands and fingers tends to be detrimental to my playing, so I usually end up paying someone else to do most work beyond safe stuff like changing an air filter, etc.

I do a lot of Broadway-type show pit orchestra work. At the moment, I'm on The Wizard of Oz at the Norris Theater in Palos Verdes.
At the OTMH, you may have seen me with the Crazy Rhythm Hot Society Orchestra, of which I am a founding member.

Looking forward to meeting you.
CZD

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Dierl:
Bill,

Jasper who?

They sell rebuilt engines. I seem to recall that they have RV or tow versions, and stand behind the warranty. Once you are into a Ford, look at the cam timing. There is something I remember about boats on that. See if you can get Eddie Chevalier to talk to you on this. I believe he has raced Fords, so should have some good input. Maybe some other Ford Guys will add.

quote:

I used to race Pro-Rally, before getting married and buying a house, so I have a pretty good understanding of what goes where, and why, mechanically. I find that tearing up my hands and fingers tends to be detrimental to my playing, so I usually end up paying someone else to do most work beyond safe stuff like changing an air filter, etc.

Yes, the fingers. What instrument do you play? Protecting the fingers always reminds me of a former Hungarian Freedom Fighter who studied under Geza Anda in Budapest. During the uprisings, the Russians were upset with him for blowing up a tank or something and smashed both his hands with rifle butts. He still played superbly, but his concert career was ruined and his hands never looked right. I once saw E Power Biggs use the abrasive from a matchbook to clean the commutator of a running blower motor. I just shuddered at what a risk he was taking with those golden hands. So.......you are doing right by your hands.

quote:

At the OTMH, you may have seen me with the Crazy Rhythm Hot Society Orchestra, of which I am a founding member.
CZD

Crazy Rhythm, huh? Yeah we have heard you guys at Orange County and other festivals. (I think I saw Olroy when you guys performed in Port Angeles. That guy can dance). Great Band. We attended OC every year since forever until they froze out RVs, leaving us to only use the overpriced resorts around Disneyland. Heck, the dry camping was almost free and they provided a shuttle to boot. Now, parking the toad anywhere nearby is more expensive than the whole big RV was. Oh-Oh, I'm starting a rant......Anyway, it was fun to see the same people every year and sometimes at other festivals, too.

Now, back to your Barth. Can you describe the failure mode in detail? What was temp reading on the flat? Did it slowly rise as you passed Lake Palmdale on the left? Or was it a sudden event? Did you lose power gradually or all at once?

It is possible that you just blew a head gasket. A compression test of a hot engine will tell the tale. Are there bubbles in a full radiator? Did the engine lock up or continue to run? A best-case scenario would be to find a blown head gasket and pull both heads. I would have them checked for warpage and probably trued.

It's amazing how these coaches get around. I drove this coach three or four years ago when it was in Lancaster, SC. The guy wanted $27000 then but the gas pusher scared me away. It didn't have very much get up and go back then, but it seems to have made it to California. What does anyone think about replacing that Ford with a diesel if the Ford is big time broken?

quote:

Originally posted by humbojb:
What does anyone think about replacing that Ford with a diesel if the Ford is big time broken?

I would suspect that, since it has a V8 already, a V8 Diesel would be the simplest conversion. I don't know how much heavier a Duramax is, but that should be carefully considered back there. Perhaps the GM 6.5 would be lighter. Rusty can comment on the durability issues. You would need the transmission and computer(depending) from a donor vehicle as well as the engine. A different ratio ring and pinion would probably also be needed. And, ahem, a bigger radiator.

The decision to go gas or Diesel has to depend on the mileage driven and the mileage of the vehicle. Decide how many miles will be driven in a year and then calculate gas and Diesel fuel costs over those miles with the fuel consumption of each engine. The Diesel will be cheaper to fuel, but probably more expensive maintenance such as oil and filters, etc. It would be good to talk to a Duramax owner on that. Rusty can talk on the 6.5 fluids and filters.

I believe Bill NY already did some calculating on that somewhere here. But, you gotta drive a lotta miles to justify the extra expense of a Diesel, whether original purchase or conversion.
A side issue here is that Diesel coaches are usually made on better chassis, so the ride is better, the handling is safer, and the gear is more heavy duty, but harder to find in out of the way places.

That said, the 460 is a strong engine, and can be rebuilt at a reasonable cost. I know in pickups, they take more gas than a 454, but in a MH, the difference is less dramatic.

The GM (Now AMG) 6.5L TD would be an option. The AMG engine shares little with the GM version. Compression is 18:1 instead of 21+:1. The block is 20-25% stronger due to the new alloy. Yellow line on the AMG is 3500RPM, so a changeout of the pinion might not be necessary. Mine is rated at 230 HP and 420 lb.-ft. torque at 2,600 RPM, which is adequate at the 16K lbs. running at 62 mph.

IIRC, dry weight for the long short block (turbo, injectors, water pump, but no manifilds or accessories) was 985 lb.

However, the AMG is EGT-limited (as were the GM versions) meaning that there's power that can't always be used.

Anyway, I had mine built by Peninsula Diesel in Michigan for a bit under $10K delivered (with a lot of extras); installation was $1700, which included new parts for the installation. The coach already had an aftermarket HD 4L80E tranny, and the new engine was basically a drop-in.

I think for simplicity, if it were I, I'd stick with the 460, but review the cooling system to see if it can be beefed up.

I've watched this thread from the beginning and I guess I need to throw in my penny's worth. All the discussion before and after the sale seemed to concentrate on the cooling issue, which, unfortunately, raised it's ugly head on the homeward bound trip.
OK, here's what I can't understand. This is an 18 year old coach that has provided almost 50 thousand miles of travel to it's previous owners. Did they just replace the engine after every leg of a trip? Assuming the design is at fault that would be the only reasonable conclusion, as the engine would overheat every time you put it on the road, usually with catastrophic results. If the buyers picked this up brand new at a huge dealership and blew her up on the way home, I'd say yep, somebody really screwed up on the drawing board. But that isn't the case here.
So while it really truly broke my heart to read about Chris's unfortunate trip home, I'm leaning toward believing there was something not as yet discussed [or discovered] that led to the cooling failure.

My Barth overheated on its way home, too. In my case, as part of the test drive, I drove it over hill and dale with a heavy 4WD behind it and it passed with all flags flying.

However, on the way home, it started to run hot. Fortunately, I was watching the gages. There was not a transmission gage, but a feel check showed the trans to be overheating wildly. There was no transmission cooler other than the one in the radiator. We disconnected the toad. No help. I parked the Barth on the road and sent the wife in the toad to buy a cooler while I stayed to lie to the highway patrolman who wanted that wreck off the freeway. After installing the cooler, it was still too hot. Sent her to buy another one while I stayed with it again. Fortunately, it was a different patrolman this time, so I could buy more time. Second cooler still too hot. I ended up running the drinking water fill hose from the kitchen water faucet (duct tape connection) to the open radiator fill and leaving both block drains open and the radiator drain open. While I drove, my wife modulated the kitchen sink faucet to have enough water going into the radiator fill to balance what was running out. With cool water entering the radiator, things were OK, but barely. We made it home that way. I dropped the tranny, but had not overhauled a TH400 for quite a while so had a well-recommended race trans builder come and get it. His hours and mine did not connect, and he ended up picking it up in my absence, so we never had a chance to talk. When he dropped it off, he said, "Oh, was your engine running a little hot?" After awarding him the Understatement Award for that quarter, I told him what I had done. We were enjoying such a good laugh over it that I forgot what he said the problem was. It made sense to me at the time, but I can't remember it now.

I mention this, not only as an example of what can happen, and did happen, but as a reminder of the necessity of a transmission cooler. And also of the necessity of watching temp gages.

I recall that Lancaster to Acton was hotter than usual that weekend, too. Maybe steeper than usual, too.

So, it is possible that that Barth had not had previous heating problems. A good visual inspection might have indicated something, yea or nay, who knows?

All cooling systems deteriorate. Radiators develop a layer of oxidation, impeding heat transfer, as do blocks. An anti freeze solution that is fine for the Midwest will not cool as well as a less-concentrated solution. Perhaps it had never climbed a hot steep hill with the dash air on, if it was. Chiriaco has signs saying to turn off dash air, but I don't remember any such signs there. Even gear selection and road speed can affect hill climbing engine temperature. If anyone replace the water pump, and installed one with a stamped (rather than cast) impeller, overheating on hills can result.

Perhaps someone overheated it before and warped the heads, and it never showed up until the Acton grade on a hot day. Been there, done that. Buy me a beer and I will tell you about my Cadillac. Actually, it would take a couple pitchers to get the whole, sad story.

Leaving the Cad and getting back to Barths and climbing, I removed my dash air for two reasons.

1. The condensor puts heat into the radiator air.

2. The compressor adds to the engine's load climbing a hill.

3. Freon 12 is expensive, of doubtful provenance, and toxic to the atmosphere.

4. Running the dash air can cause pure water in the cooling system to ice up in the heater core. This necessitates running enough anti freeze to prevent icing, but that same amount of anti freeze does not cool as well as pure water with Red Line Water Wetter. WW will improve an anti freeze mixture, but WW and straight water is best.

Some of this may sound like overkill, but I have towed across the Mojave desert, up Chiriaco, Grapevine, Montezuma, Cajon and Sherman Grades in really hot weather. Some of this has been a learning experience, sadly. My present engine has a Siamese block, so overheating is an ever-present Damoclean sword. Owning Jaguars has also qualified me for membership into the Overheating Club.

My Breakaway has an A/C condenser separate from the raidator, cooled by two electric fans. I also put in an external oil cooler (Also cooled by a fan) replacing the one integral to the radiator. I don't know if the gaso pusher Regals have a condenser in front of the radiator.

An R-12 system can be converted to R-134a fairly easily.

So, I have a really dumb question..... Does that 460 run "backwards" from what "pullers" with other 460's do? If so, does it have a special starter and alternator? Just wondering 'cause I lost a 360 Dodge in Baja Mexico once and they sold me a replacement engine that turned out to be a wrong direction boat engine... No big deal, I swapped camshafts, but it was an extra two days in the sun I didn't need.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Touring Bee:
Just wondering 'cause I lost a 360 Dodge in Baja Mexico once and they sold me a replacement engine that turned out to be a wrong direction boat engine... No big deal, I swapped camshafts, but it was an extra two days in the sun I didn't need.

Did it take the same oil & water pump?

Bill N.Y.

quote:

Originally posted by Touring Bee:
So, I have a really dumb question..... Does that 460 run "backwards" from what "pullers" with other 460's do? If so, does it have a special starter and alternator?
Cheers, John

I doubt there's a difference; my Breakway uses the GM/AMG engine standard in 'Burbs and Pickups/Hummers. The diffy obviously faces aft, and is flipped side-to-side to provide the correct rotation.

Hello all -
Sorry for not continuing the saga sooner, but there has been much frustration and little progress.
The engine failure was initiated by a radiator hose failure, combined with a hill, a hot day, and driver error in not being used to an unfamiliar coach. (On top of everything else, I set the steering wheel tilt and seat in just the right positions so as to obscure my view of the trans and engine temp gauges behind the rim of the steering wheel.)
I found a good RV shop, Starr Automotive, right here in Long Beach.
They sent the radiator out for refreshment, and rebuilt the heads, as the gaskets had, in fact, failed.

Unfortunately, the coach is not yet drivable. Around town, on the flat, the 460 quite quickly heats up to 210F. After about 20 minutes, the trans temp gets there too, then they both continue on up to at least 235F, if allowed.
Shop says 210F is too hot, should be more like 190F, and is looking at fans and airflow. "Flex Fan" on motor and two electric fans on exterior of (rear mounted) radiator all blow out the back.
Running sans thermostat does not change behavior.

Advice welcome.
Thanks,
CZD

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Dierl:
Unfortunately, the coach is not yet drivable. Around town, on the flat, the 460 quite quickly heats up to 210F. After about 20 minutes, the trans temp gets there too, then they both continue on up to at least 235F, if allowed.

Have you replaced the Water Pump yet?

I ask this questions from experience dealing with an engine overheat condition in a Ford 460 delivery truck.

The engine blew a hose, the driver overheated the motor because he kept driving it. He knew it blew, but he didn't care. After changing the heads and having the engine temp shoot up I removed t-stats. The water pump was turning and the coolant was flowing... water pump good, right? Nope...

What was happening was the engine would start to warm up and then, at that point, the impeller would slip on the shaft causing the engine to overheat.

It blew the hose because the engine overheated from a slipping water pump impeller. I thought the hose blew out from a rupture caused by age. These things are pressed on and have been known to slip.

Run it around town and then turn on the heat. Yes, the heat. See if the heat stays hot for awhile. If the heat at the heater core seems weak, temperature wise, or it gets cooler after awhile then you probably have a bad water pump.

I have changed the water pump on my 1991 EFI 460 Ford Powered Barth and can tell you. They make 2 types of water pumps for the 460. One is offset more then the other and are not interchangable.

This overheat problem reminds me of a conversation years ago when I was contemplating buying an FMC. The author, resident expert on FMCs in Morgan Hill, CA, noted that the worst problem with their rear-engine design was inadequate heat rejection. Perhaps that is endemic to rear-engine Fords as well.

Overheating results when the mechanism produces more heat than the cooling system can reject. The cooling system might not be efficient enough to reject the normal excess heat the mechanism produces, or the mechanism may be producing more heat than normal.

Some things that can produce excess heat are improper timing, exhaust gas blowing into the cooling system through leaking gaskets or cracks, restricted exhaust flow, & slipping transmissions. I've experienced them all, & there may be others.

Inadequate heat rejection results from too slow, or too fast water flow caused by a faulty thermostat or water pump, a collapsing lower radiator hose (make sure the metal coil is there inside that hose - it's there to prevent collapse), a plugged-up or inadequate radiator, or insufficient air flow. Slipping belts can cause overheating, too. Others may have more ideas.

If you're losing coolant, or you see bubbles in circulating water with the radiator cap removed, and the engine idling at operating temperature, that suggests an exhaust leak. To be sure, you need a combustion leak test.

Considering the previous engine failure & the work just completed, a combustion leak test would seem appropriate to be sure there's no exhaust getting into the cooling system. If that problem exists, there ain't no way you're going to cool that engine until it's fixed. Been there, done that.

You need a really professional outfit to conduct that test. The cooling system must be drained & flushed of antifreeze several times before the test is conducted. Any antifreeze remaining in the system will create an error in the test.

The transmission temperature can be held down with an aftermarket trans. cooler, as others have suggested. That might help your engine heating problem as well.

A 50/50 mixture of antifreeze & water will boil at 262 degrees with a 14 lb. radiator cap at sea level. You haven't boiled it yet, & 210 degrees ain't bad, but 235 is too much unless you're pulling a load, or a hill. Your trans temp should settle around 210 or less IF you have a good auxiliary cooler. Without a cooler, it's likely to be higher. On hills, or with a tow, radiator & tranny are going to go up, but both should settle well below 235 on the level with a normal load.

Check the easy stuff first, lower hose, timing, exhaust restriction, etc.. Put on a good trans cooler if you don't already have one, a bigger one if you do.

Rear gas engines may be inherently more difficult to cool, as their cooling systems are designed for ram air from the front. More fans, bigger radiators, & other ways to assist air into & out of engine compartments are the order of the day here.

Learn from N.Y. Bill's previous post, too.

Good luck - and remember - Rv-ing is fun.