I talked to matthew 5-10-12 at about noon. I am going to try and see the barth and get a data tag picture 5-11-12.

I spoke to Matthew this A.M. after forwarding the URL for this topic and he is puzzled by all this and is going out to find the data tag today to find out what is happening. We should hear something soon.

Hi Folks,
Matthew here, the fellow that has possession of the 1994 Barth you are all talking about. I have never re titled the coach in my name since I will not be able to enjoy it. I took the information from what the last owner told me as a two owner. If I missed one it was strictly out of not being aware. The VIN # I put in the EBay listing is the # reflected on the clear California title. All the books, manuals and records that came with the coach refer to a Cummings engine. The coach does have air brakes. It does not have a side by side refer.Everthing about the coach looks to be original front to back. The mileage and the hours were taken from the coach as I saw it. I have not found the data tag but I will make a concerted effort to do so. All of what I put in the listing for sale is what I gleaned from the coach records and what the revious owner told me. Man, let me tell you, If I could enjoy this coach like I entended to, would I ever. It drives like a dream. If I got some of the information wrong then I will blame it on my age and mental state and not out of trying to decieve anyone. I can't fathom anyone bidding before they come and see it for themselves. I am open to any advice, help, criticism, or low level bitching you want to give me. Phone # 714-349-0040 & don't block your call.

If it was something as simple as a typo it would be 1 digit off - not the 4 that it's off now.

The 9th digit in a vin is your "Check Digit". In this case, for it to work, you also have the "Check Digit" correct.

On a Gillig Chassis the 6th & 7th digit is the engine code. That too is incorrect. You have it listed an 8.3 Cummins - the vin, as shown in his ad, is for a 3116 Cat.

Also, the last grouping stand for the sequential build.

1 digit might be an error - 4 digits is a little bit too much.

Here is the complete breakdown of that Gillig Vin#'s

46G: Gillig Incomplete Vehicle Chassis
E: Incomplete Vehicle
D: 40 foot or incomplete vehicle
15: 3116 Cat (403 CID)
1: Air Brakes
7: Check Digit
P: 1993
1: Hayward California
051995: Sequential Build Number

First 3 Digits - Word Manufacturer Identifier
15G: Gillig Bus Chassis
46G: Gillig Incomplete Vehicle Chassis

4th Digit - Model Line
A: School Bus
B: Utility Bus
C: City Transit Bus
D: City Suburban Bus
E: Incomplete Vehicle
F: Shuttle Bus
G: Low Floor Bus

5th Digit - Series & Body Types
A: 30 foot
B: 35 foot
C: 37 foot
D: 40 foot or incomplete vehicle
E: 27 or 28 or 28.5 foot

6th & 7th Digit - Engine Type
01: 3208 Cat - 200hp
02: 3208 Cat - 210hp
03: 3208 Cat - 250hp
04: 3208 Cat - 636cid
05: Cummins 855 Big Cam
06: Detroit Diesel 6-71 (426 CID)
07: Detroit Diesel 6V-53 (318 CID)
08: Detroit Diesel 6V-92 (552 CID 260HP)
09: Detroit Diesel 6V-92 (552 CID)
10: Chevrolet Gas 427
11: Detroit Diesel 8.2L (500 CID)
12: Cummins L-10 (611 CID)
13: Ford Gas 460
14: Detroit Diesel 6-71 (426 CID)
15: 3116 Cat (403 CID)
16: 3176 Cat (629 CID)
17: Detroit Diesel 8V-92 (736 CID)
18: Cummins C8.3L ISC (505 CID)
19: Cummins B5.9L ISB (359 CID)
20: Detroit Diesel 50 Series (518 CID)
21: Cummins M11 (661 CID)
22: Detroit Diesel 40 Series (530 CID)
23: Detroit Diesel 60 Series (12.7L)
24: 3126 Cat (439 CID)
25: Caterpillar C-12 (11.95L)
26: Detroit Diesel 40 Series (466 CID)
27: Cummins Diesel ISL (540 CID)
28: Electric Motor or Fuel Cell
29: Cummins Diesel ISL (506 CID)
Note: Diesels could also be a CNG or LNG version

8th Digit - Type of brakes
1: Air Brakes
2: Hydraulic Brakes

9th Digit - Check Digit
Click here for a description of a check digit

10th Digit - Model Year Of Chassis
A: 1980
B: 1981
C: 1982
D: 1983
E: 1984
F: 1985
G: 1986
H: 1987
J: 1988
K: 1989
L: 1990
M: 1991
N: 1992
P: 1993
R: 1994
S: 1995
T: 1996
V: 1997
W: 1998
X: 1999

11th Digit - Plant of Manufacturer
1: Hayward California
2: Hillsboro Texas

12-17th Digits - Serial Number
Sequential Build Number

There are certain things I know - and if I see something this blatantly wrong with a coach, I'm going to say something. I can prove everything I've said. The owner of the vin# you have listed, Bob & Jan, can prove his vin#.

I would think that you would want to figure out what your correct vin# is and straighten it out.

You stated that you can't even find your vin# or the data tag info - When John Jacobson owned that coach he had the vin# and his data tag was on the wall. Have you checked with him yet?

I thought this coach looked familiar, and was one with an identity crisis - it was here.

I just got off the phone with the seller. He took a ride out to the coach with Mike.H (from above) and when they pulled the curtain back, they found 2 screw holes where the data tag belongs.

I told him to look on the left (drivers) side frame rail before or after the front axle and he'll see the vin# stamped into the frame.

Seeing that he no longer has that data tag on the wall - I asked him to remove a few drawers and see if it says 3888, as I suspect it will, or if it says 3889 like on Bob and Jan's tag.

He sounds like someone who bought a coach and just took the info as he was given on his title. He took whatever someone told him about the 300hp and listed that too.

I am only trying to help the members on our site. I couldn't "Not Say Something" if I know something isn't correct. In this instant - I know something isn't right. What that "Something Is" is still trying to be determined.

Anyway, let's wait for Mathew to go back to the coach and get the vin# from the frame rail and we'll go from there.

Hi everyone, I did go see the 1994 barth in person. Matthew has it and a california title, so I would say its not an ebay scam. I would say Matthew is a nice enough guy to take any serious buyer to look at it, that person should match the title to frame vin# before they hand over $$ just like any other auto purchase. Also he has two barths, the other is a 1983 22' that he is fixing up for his son. I took a picture of it and the data tag. I also took a picture of the title to the 1994 to see what C.A. has down as the vin# . I will post pictures shortly, need help from the wife, not very good with computers. hope this helps a little, Mike

So here is the 83 Barth Pictures and 2 data tag shots. The other pictures are of title and previous owner death certificate for the 94 Barth.

Bill,

Keep up the good detective work and yes always check out the vin and do a history check on vehicles posted on e-bay.

I was interested in a GMC step-in van that was on e-bay with bids and it had a buy now price.
It was listed as being in Ga.
I did a vin check and tried to do history check on it. Nothing came back right- wrong year, wrong type of vehicle, wrong make.
I let e-bay security know about it and it was quickly removed and I never seen it listed again.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Mike.H:
hope this helps a little, Mike

It helps a lot. Thanks for taking the ride out and looking at both coaches. Talking to Mathew he seems like a decent guy too - problem is, someone's got a bum vin on their coach.

Is it Bob and Jan? I don't think so, as their vin# matches up with what's in their coach for an engine.

Mathew is going out to his coach on Monday to get the VIN# off of the frame, lets see how that plays out. It's odd how his coach is missing his tag and it's also 3 foot longer than the tag# that has this vin# associated with it.

The only explanation I can wrap my head around, I guess the USA and Canada doesn't exchange vin info across borders. So, as long as one or the other doesn't try to migrate to another land, it'll probably work out.

Anyone thought of running carfax or similar on the vin?

So what was the final conclusion? Am I correct that it sounds like Matthew has a title with the same vin as Bob and Jan?

Let me share my similiar experience.

About 4 years ago, a buddy and I bought 3 surplus Cadillacs from a funeral home. One was a 1995 Cadillac Fleetwood sedan, a 1990 Cadillac 6 door limo and a 1991 Cadillac 6 door limo. Immediately, we sold the 1995 Fleetwood and the 1990 six door limo locally.

We kept the 1991 6 door limo about 6 months and played with it...our families had a blast. Well, we decided to sell it and I put it on EBAY and it sold to gentlemen in Arizona. He bought it, flew out and drove it home. TWO YEARS LATER, the gentlemen calls me up. He says he sold the limo to a guy in Boston. The guy in Boston flies out to Arizona, pays for the car and drives it back to Boston. Two weeks later the guy in Boston calls and tells the man in Arizona that the title DOES NOT MATCH the car....the vins are different. THe guy in Boston is furious, drives the car back from Boston to Arizona and demands the guy pay him his airfare and expenses. Needless to say, the guy in Arizona calls me. My first thought was I had switched the titles on the 1990 and the 1991 limos. Since I had sold the 1990 limo locally, I went out to look and I was wrong. I then went down to our Dept of Motor Vehicles and ran the vin on the 1991 Limo in Arizona. The vin on the car in Arizona showed to be registered to a funeral home in the western part of my state.

What happened was in 1991, the original funeral home bought a matched hearse and limo. Since the cars are originally Cadillac sedans before the are converted to the limo and hearse, the titles only show them as CAdillac sedans. The original funeral home sold the hearse in 1995 to the funeral home out in the western part of our state, kept the limo and inadvertently gave them the wrong title. For 15 years, neither funeral home realized they had the wrong title. Hence, I got a title with the wrong VIN number. The guy in Arizona NEVER REGISTERED the car in ARizona and was trying to "float the title". Needless to say if he had registered the car in Arizona, he would have caught the error and we would have corrected it quickly....not 2 years after the matter. Ironically, he asked me to help out with the Bostonians expenses...I told him it wasn't my fault about him trying to float the title...


BUT I DID go ahead and drive 10 hours roundtrip out to the western part of our state, switched titles with the other funeral home, re-registered the car into my name and then signed it over and mailed it to the guy in Arizona.


Moral of the story....always check your title and VIN....

Whatever the frame inspection reveals, Matthew is stuck with a "cloudy title"; I would suggest he pull the ebay auction immediately before the situation escalates. If he can't produce a vehicle with a quiet title, he could create a major issue - he doesn't own the VIN on his title, and has no proof of ownership on that which he's selling.

The nite before we left Maui to move back to Wa. i bought a pickup that had been brought in from Canada and titled. Anything coming in to Hi. has to be checked, same thing in Wa. at the time. When Wa. looked for the frame # it was covered in bedliner type stuff. Had to scrape it away and found out that it did not match the title number. They gave me a new number on the title and put a 3 year hold on my getting a clear title. After the 3 years with no claim against it i got my title. Somebody in Hi. did not do their job.