I have been on the road since May 1, usually stopping for 1, 2, or more at each stop. Barth sits unstarted during those stops. I have had no problem until this morn when I was to pull out of KY Lake out for Branson MO.

This morn Barth started for about 10 seconds, caughed for 5 seconds, and then would not 'hit a lick'. I kept trying for about an hour, every ten minutes. No response (engine was turning over strongly).

I gave ers a call for a tow and while I waited for them to find a heavy equipment tow truck that would agree to tow me out of twisting winding campground, I tried the "purge air" on the fuel filter. Then cranked it. I got the 10 sec run, 5 sec stutter die routine. So I tried this numerous times, with the same result. Once it died it would do nothing until the air purge was run again.

At the same time that ers called to ask the distance from ny axle to the bumber, I tried again. This time it started, stuttered, and recovered to a normal idle! I immediately stopped my quest for a tow.

I think this routine clearly suggests a fuel problem, likely a bad pump or a filter problem. After hunting for hours I found a Freightliner dealer/shop that changed my filter (free, except for a tip to the mechanic!). I had my own spare filter.

Running fine. Tomorrow morn will be the proof of the filter replacement, or not.

From this overly long winded account, is it likely that the filter was my problem? Aren't fuel pumps mechanical items that either work or not, and not going weak on pressure?

Additional note: Before the filter replacement the electric air purge cycle would run perhaps 60 seconds, even if run back to back. After the filter replacement I ran it, same 60 seconds or so but sounded much better. Ran it again imediately, and it was a few seconds cycle, whixh is what I would expect to be normal.

Additional comment: There are no fuel or other leaks or drips.

Additional comment: You will ask, the filter had perhaps 6000 miles on it.

Sorry this is long winded. Are there any diesel mechanics in the group to comment?

GP - spirit in Bronson, body still on Kentucky Lake.

You lost your prime. Why? Well, it's hard to tell.

How many filters do you have. Only one, is it a suction or pressure filter. Two filters?

You could have a weak check valve in your pump, or if equipped, your filter. What was the filter part number?

The fuel tank vent could be slightly plugged causing a slight vacuum thus allowing your filter to drain out.

If you have a bad injector air could be getting into it allowing the fuel to drain back. Possible mostly on the 8.2L as these are cam actuated like your M-11.

Are you using the lubricity products for the new lower sulfur fuel? Your fuel pump seals could be allowing air in on the suction side. Air in on the suction side will allow fuel to leach back to the tank. This would happen faster if your tank was lower then if it was full.

How much fuel was left in the tank and was your diesel genny running while parked?

I know I've brought more questions then answers.

Bill N.Y.

Rusty, thanks for your reply. Some answers:

The symptom is one of a classic fuel starvation problem.
>> Agreed.

A secondary potential issue is aeration of the fuel.
>> >> Aeration of fuel by pump? Pump appears to be after the filter. So the air purge would have had no effect at the filter in this case.

What's odd is the fact it wouldn't start and run at idle (usually a plugged filter or failing fuel pump show at higher throttle settings/loads).
>> Agreed, a contrarian indication. However, a fellow here at the canpground said that his friend had a fuel filter plug while driving, and it happened cery suddenly. A slight coincidence could have caused the same sudden effect at startup.

There's a possibility of cruddy fuel having clogged the filter, but I'd suggest having the problem investigated, since 6,000 miles is an awfully short cycle.
>> Cruddy fuel should have shown up before a half tank was used (150 gallon tank). I tend to run a filter 12000 miles. Do not know if that is best, as I have gotten answers between 6000 and 12000-15000, the last from a Cummins factory shop (El Paso).

As a WAG, I'm guessing that the filter could have been a bit loose or had a bad seal, and the engine was sucking air, which you finally purged out. An air leak won't necessarily show as a fuel leak, and it could be elsewhere than the fuel filter seal.
>> That was my first candidate. The filter did drip a little past winter at home, and I tightened the bottom outlet to stop it when I noticed it. I hope the replacement of the filter fixed a clog and/or a air leak at the suction filter.

In any event, having it checked out won't take very long nor be too expensive. A qualified mechanic will check the electronics, fuel lines, fuel pump pressure, and check for leaks, among other things.
>> Any $ is too much for my budget! A qualified mechanic is hard to find (and harder to ident until he is done with the job). But also importantly I am in KY working my way back to AZ, and getting in queus for any repair at a major brand shop could take a week or two of motel time.

Good luck, and enjoy Branson!

Thanks for your reply, Rusty. I will enjoy Branson if she starts in the morn, or make the best of a 4th week in KY Lake area if not.

I will add that calling Coachnet was a very frustrating exercise. First the 'intro' lady badgered me to heck wanting street address to the number. I must have talked to her for 30 minutes. I had given her the name of the CG (Canal Campground COE) and the name of the town that is a stones throw from the campground (Grand River), and she badgered and badgered. I fonally said "look, lady, Google Canal COE Campground, or Grand Rivers, and you can find my location the same way I did." She did, then backed off. I was about to scream.

Then started the odyssey of the 'techs' trying to find a tow company that could handle Barth. All their companies were turning them down because I was/am in a campground. Somewhat understandable since a big rig tow truck is 3/4 as long as Barth, and the two make an unwieldy combination. I asked them to have the tow company to call me so we could discuss it, but they would not do that. Tonight i am in an easy out pull through so it will be a lot easier if required. Only one 90 degree turn on a decent road to get out of the CG. But then if I cannot describe that to the tow company, what good will the prime access be?

So what did I learn?
Go to the CG hosts and get a mailing street address before calling, or be badgered to fill in every block on some computer on the other the end of the phone.

Also my cell coverage was a 'walk to find a connection of two bars' ordeal, and would sometimes fade entirely out.
Lesson 2: Drive to a good signal even though it will mean that you are waiting in the car for four hours that could be spent trying to solve the problem.

Bill, I will answer your Qs with hopes that it leads to a conclusion (or best assumption). All good Qs.
BTW 1, 2, or more should have read 1, 2 or more weeks...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill N.Y.:
How many filters do you have.
>>Freightliner looked for a secondary filter and could find none.

Only one, is it a suction or pressure filter.
>>It is a suction filter.

You could have a weak check valve in your pump, or if equipped, your filter. What was the filter part number?
>> I believe it is a Ranco??? Working from memory here. It is the one with electrinic air purge and water detection / purge.

The fuel tank vent could be slightly plugged causing a slight vacuum thus allowing your filter to drain out.
>> I don't think my tank cap seal is tight enough to do that (Some deisel leaks from filler cap on mtn roads after full fillup)

If you have a bad injector air could be getting into it allowing the fuel to drain back. Possible mostly on the 8.2L as these are cam actuated like your M-11.
>> Geez I hope not!

Are you using the lubricity products for the new lower sulfur fuel?
>> No, and I am not knowlingly taken on any low sulphur fuel. What is the name of the lubricity products?

Your fuel pump seals could be allowing air in on the suction side. Air in on the suction side will allow fuel to leach back to the tank. This would happen faster if your tank was lower then if it was full.
>> OK. Tank is half full.

How much fuel was left in the tank and was your diesel genny running while parked?
>> Gen was not used while sitting, but I did run it a while with no problem while the M11 would not start to use block heater to warm engine and to charge battery (too lazy to plug back in).

I know I've brought more questions then answers.
>> All very good questions, and I totally agree with your line of reasoning.

Thanks, any potentials that you can eliminate from my answers?

Bill N.Y.

Experienced almost the same situation. Turned out to be a slightly loose fuel line connection near the fuel filter. It was actually loose enough to move without using a wrench. No fuel leak was evident. It was just sucking a tiny bit of air.

Mike

It sounds like you were sucking in air. Run a wrench on all suction side lines and snug them up. Your replacement filter more likely repaired your problem but tighten those lines anyway.

The lubricity products are by many companies. I use the stuff sold by FPPF brands. The fuel leak that you tightened up over the winter was most likely from your fuel/water drain. There is a seal that could allow air into your filter. If air can get in and your tank is lower then the suction that's in that line drew down the filter.

Air is smaller then fuel. You can get a suction leak easier then getting a psi leak.

O am packing with optimism for travel. Will know in a few if the filter replacement fixed air leak, clogged filter, whatever. Going offline.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
A secondary potential issue is aeration of the fuel.
>> >> Aeration of fuel by pump? Pump appears to be after the filter. So the air purge would have had no effect at the filter in this case.

Not caused by the pump discharge or the pump itself, but by suction created by the pump, sucking air into the line somewhere, as Bill N Y mentioned.

Hopefully, you're in Branson when you read this....

An update, this time I will force myself to keep long story short.

I got up with determined optimism this morn and completely prepared to leave. The engine would not hit. The air purge on the WINN filter setup did nothing today. I consulted again with Hough ton (SP?) at Freight liner and two mobile mechanics, one recommended by Hough ton, the other by mechanic #1 (due to the distance difference. A combination of input from bramble.com, Mr Hough ton, and the two mobile mechanics resulted in a consensus that the WINN electronic unit was the nest likely culprit (not just the filter cannister).

I purchased a new filter and adapter and had them installed, completely bypassing my old WINN filter. He made a mounting bracket, had necessary hose fittings, and mounted it. We started it by help of a small squirt of starting fluid and she purged the lines and quickly came to a smooth and proper rpm idle. Two hours after installation I restarted her with an aggressive burst to life.

Before replacing the filter he ask me exactly what I had done and what happened, then made one troubleshooting step. He removed the goes-in and the goes-out filter lines and coupled them directly together (with a little air in them of course). A shot of starter fluid to overcome the air block and she ran without stopping or stuttering. This was the enough to convince that the WINN filter was defective.

Now I am in the same place (and location) that I was last night, overly optimism that early tomorrow morn will witness Barth rolling out of Canal Campground.

I will post comments about Coachnet separately as many may not want to bother reading it.

Coachnet is a disappointment in my first encounter. Not nearly as friendly or effective as my previous insurance-provided ers.

Basically yesterday I stopped a tow about to be dispatched because Barth had finally started to run. I took her to Freightliner and had a fuel filter cartridge replaced. Drove back 'home', just to find that today she would not hit a single time.

I had identified a mechanic locally that I trusted. I called Coachnet to see if they would pay him direct (not a CN contractor) or reimburse me later since I could still not operate. 'Let me research it and call you back in 5', said he.

He did indeed call back and said that although they would help me find a mobile repair person, they would not cover any costs because yesterday I succeeded in getting it to a qualified repair center and voluntarily drove out of the facility! I am sure he had a smile on his face when he offered to find a service, as he knew that I already had done so.

Even though I had saved them the previous day tow bill, and had done everything I could to avoid their having to pay anything because it was mutually advantageous, it is now my fault.

I told him that was a chicken crap way to get out of a claim, and that I would appeal with a copy of the bill and explainationto the 'board'.

It is obvious their focus is on pinching every penney in any way they can. Their socalled 'technicians' are not mechanical technicians as some people believe, but claims minimizers.

They have no concern for the insured, no intention of making fair judgements. They are the Katrina Allstate of ers.

I did remember that I also have an inexpensive ers with my Statefarm policy, called them to check coverage, and was told that I have coverage and that will reimburse me, but they have no system for assistance in finding help. Then again it costs almost nothing.

quote:

a consensus that the WINN electronic unit was the nest likely culprit (not just the filter cannister).

What's the purpose of an "electronic unit" on the fuel filter? Never heard of this one.

Mike

The WINN unit is not an electronic filter, but it has electrics for air purge and water purge. It uses a normal style filter cartridge.

one push button will run through a air purge cycle to pull fuel from the tank to the top of the filter, removing air after replacement of the cartridge.

It also has a "water" light that will come on on if any water is trapped in the bottom of the filter, with a push button to purge the water automatically if there. I have never seen water in it, and I had never used the air purge since I did not change my own filters.

It was bypassed and a simple standard diesel filter put on. The installer had to make a bracket for the new filter.

I don't think many companies use the WINN any more. It apparently a frill used by Barth. I may remove it and try to fix it when at home, but I doubt it is worth the effort to do so.

I guess I will not know for sure that the air leak is fully fixed until I try to start Barth after a week or two of sitting.