Billl,

I have been following this thread closely as I am rewiring to eliminate my isolator. Could these relays be under rated for their application?

Bill G

quote:

Originally posted by Bill G:
I have been following this thread closely as I am rewiring to eliminate my isolator. Could these relays be under rated for their application?

Bill G

The one they purchased was rated for 100 amps. They do make a bigger one called the Big Boy that's rated for 200 amps.

I would suspect the rating thing had nothing to do with it as they only had on the interior light and no other load.

The big boy cost about $30 more then the 100 amp unit and if you subscribe to the theory principle (pun intended) of bigger is better then that might work better for you. The correct backyard terminology is called "Fudge Factor"

The "Big Boy" would has a larger plate and bigger contacts for the amp load and maybe a heavier latch assy. It sure looks like it could handle some amps... I didn't see the "Big Boy" until after this thread was underway. I've never dealt with this company before. Just found it on the net like Rusty did.

The link to the "big boy" is here

http://www.intellitec.com/pdfs..._web/5300507.000.pdf

The link to there battery product page is here

http://www.intellitec.com/pdfs..._web/batteryprod.htm

And a link to there customer service page is here

http://www.intellitec.com/custserv.htm

I hope there customer support is good and I would like to hear how hilarlee is treated by this company. The problem with electrical is the fear factor of getting started. hilarlee has overcome the fear and has wired it in like it's suppose to be. The switch is wired correctly and you can hear it trying to unlatch but the contacts are not releasing.

I would suspect a MFG defect before anything else. But unless I'm standing there looking at it I can only guess about several scenario's on cause of failure. The latching relay use and wiring are sound. I'm disappointed too. I was hoping for a thank you instead of this.

Such is life... Sometimes it just steps up and bites you... I hope they get this straightened out.

Ps. As stated earlier I still subscribe to the "Big Switch" in simplicity and being bullet proof in design. The problem with the "Big Switch" is location in relation to batteries. Some coaches just make it almost impossible to do unless your willing to remount batteries. In that case the "Latching Relay" is the way to go!

Due to its design, I would guess that this relay has to be mounted vertically, as the pemanent "N" magnet appears to position itself (closed) by gravity.

Also, from the circuit shown, I'd suspect that a two pole, double-throw, center-off momentary contact switch is required. If the coil isn't de-energized, it'll burn out.

This is a bit of an odd design. The shipboard ones that I'm familiar with had two coils, one for each position. An over-center spring held the contacts in either position. A second set of delayed contacts enegerized the opposing coil, so that after the relay switched, the switch to the coils was disconnected and the return coil could be powered by throwing the switch in the opposite direction. That enabled determining the circuit's condition by looking at the switch position, and a standard SPDT switch could be used.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Due to its design, I would guess that this relay has to be mounted vertically, as the permanent "N" magnet appears to position itself (closed) by gravity.

It doesn't say anything in the PDF about mounting angles so maybe that's not critical... It does work off of the field coil generation via reverse polarity... I even had him check voltage at the battery side of the relay and used that power source to operate. The site says 10.5 volts and he was above that while operation.

The way it looks to me I would think that you're right about mounting location. While not having to be 100% level I would think mounting it upside down or at a 90 degree angle might cause a problem. I asked and was told it was level.

The N pole is a neat little design allowing the magnetic field generated by the reverse current to either attract (south to north) or repel (north to north).

http://www.intellitec.com/PDF/5300066.100.pdf

It does have 2 springs.
One is call the "over travel spring" to kick it off of reverse magnetic field and the other is just a "return spring" to lift the contact disk off of the contact studs.

Odd, it worked 20x and then stopped. I don't know what happened with this.

It looks like the end cap could come off and if I was standing there I would take it off to see what's holding it latched, but I'm not going to try to talk him thru that when it should be under warranty!

My real concern is if a DPDTCO momentary contact switch is used. The directions and diagram don't really make it clear, but if a standard DPDT switch is used the coil is always powered, and I doubt it's designed for that, and that's what has caused the failure.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
My real concern is if a DPDTCO momentary contact switch is used.

Momentary on - off - Momentary on

It shows in the diagram the
momentary on - off - momentary on

If it was as you think it was it would say
on - off - on

While operating it under testing you can hear it latch and then reversing you hear it double latch.

The picture that is attached to the link is incorrect in that it shows it being in a down (should be in the middle) position but the spec sheet shows it operating in the correct fashion. The above pic cleary shows
momentary on - off - momentary on

March 7 2:20am: You can make a regular 6 terminal momentary switch do this by running jumper wires across the center from each outer post like in the picture. X pattern.

March 7 10:58pm: It states that voltage is applied one way to latch and another way to disengage. The DPDT (momentary on - off - momentary on) would be the only way to operate this.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
but if a standard DPDT switch is used the coil is always powered, and I doubt it's designed for that, and that's what has caused the failure.

Now if they were sent the wrong switch then I would agree. I'm pretty sure they have the right switch but I neglected to ask that... Hmmm.

Well, that's the right switch - time to send the relay back...

Hi Rusty and Bill, I just got off the phone with "Sam" of EcoVantage Energy Inc. He was very friendly and I was pleasently surprised to hear he would send me another unit with a return label for the defective unit. I questioned him about the number of defective units he's seen and he did admit to seeing a few. He wasn't specific. Because this was the fourth time I have had to deal with this issue I decided to upgrade to Intellitec "Big Boy" relay.

http://www.ecovantageenergy.com/catalog/items/item2056.htm

I agree $165 is a TON of money but the monies and labor spent so far on this manf.design flaw greatly surpasses this amount. My hope is this is Intellitec's "best" disconnect product and will last 30 years. I'll let everyone know how it goes as soon as it arrives next week. I did consider the fact that maybe the cable might be too tight or the relay may not be installed perfectly level but if the product is that sensitive to vibration, heat, or the bad names I call it, I'd rather pay for a better device.

Thanks again Bill for confirming that I'm not losing my mind and we have covered all angles.

ps I did order the momentary DPDT switch as recommended in this post from Granger;item 3JC10 Hubbell wiring device-Kellems MR223MMSP

All this has caused me to be sure that if I ever buy a Barth pusher, I will get rid of the relay and put in a Green Knob or Guest or Perko switch before the gremlins bite me.

I spent my working life chasing rogue electrons around in overly complex, failure-prone systems. It put bread on the table, but I like my own stuff to be reliable. Every component in a system adds exponentially to the number of potential failure modes and their likelihood.

Good Grief, why did they make it so complex and failure-prone? Did Airbus have a hand in this? Lucas? Chauchat?

Lucas? As in "Prince of Darkness"? I feel your pain...I was the Electrical Guy for a dealership that sold M-Bs, deTomasos,and Jaguars. I remember both Mercedes I repaired, but I couldn't remember at the end of the day any of the MGs, Triumphs, Jags, and Alfas I saw....

quote:

Originally posted by hilarlee:
...I was pleasently surprised to hear he would send me another unit with a return label for the defective unit.

Is he crediting you the difference from the Big Boy to the 100 amp and only charging you a little more for the bigger unit?

Hi Bill, Sam at EcoVantage will put the credit from the defective relay towards the Big Boy relay. I'll pay the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by hilarlee:
...I'll pay the difference.

Good for you, it sounds like he's treating you fairly. Keep us informed.

Bill

What would we do without Bill N Y? Makes me want to have StaRV II crap out around Port Jervis, just to meet him in person and see him in action. In June, of course, not February...

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:
I spent my working life chasing rogue electrons around in overly complex, failure-prone systems......Every component in a system adds exponentially to the number of potential failure modes and their likelihood.

I think this whole post on the relay and latching relay is rather interesting. It's kind of neat how they made this latch to work. Problematic, but neat...

Now if I was to design it I would make a single exciter with a

SPST Momentary on - off Switch

And the latching relay would work like one of those see thru pens. Either the offset triangle or the round little offset teeth design.

Anybody want to Patent the design? I love to problem solve. Honestly, anything can be done better if you think about it.

At the very least I find this a refreshing and pretty cool thread.