I took the Barth out today for a little spin. On my way back I decided to get it weighed. I stop at a certified Cat truck scale. The Barth was completely empty on the inside, fuel tank was about 3/4 full and propane about 1/2 full. No water in holding tanks. They came up with front-4560 drive- 9920. Total 14480. My tag says I can have 6000 front and 10000 back. So is the back already maxed out? Something just doesn't seem right. Thanks for the help Gerald

Factory chassis specs are usually very conservative, & the majority of motorhomes, regardless of make, have come out of the factory close to being maxed-out empty. Barths, generally, are no exception.

Tag axle P-30 Regals have a little more official carrying capacity, & Firestone Ride-Rite airbags, or similar, can make you feel more comfortable, as can additional spring leaves, & add-ons like track bars, or other suspension modifications that improve stability.

If you don't go overboard adding weight, your main concern is not exceeding the weight rating of the axle itself, & your tires and wheels. It also makes good sense to be mindful of your chassis limitations when distributing your load.

There are many motorhomes traveling our highways grossly overloaded because their owners don't have a clue about chassis weight ratings. The fact there are not more accidents is a tribute to the built-in safety factor of chassis builders conservatism in setting weight ratings.

Loaded for star parties, I run ~5400 front, 10,400 rear. No problems, but I inflate the tires according to mfrs' specs

Olroy,Rusty... thanks for the information. I know that just by having the holding tank full, which I am guessing would be about 300lbs plus two more people I would be looking at an extra 600lbs. My tires are new Goodyear G647 RSS 8R19.5 Range F. The manufacture stamp says max load single 3525 @ 110 psi - dual 3415 @110psi. The data tag said 100 psi front and 85psi back, so that is what I have them at. Do I need to get these all up to 110psi? I dont't know about the wheels. Thanks again, I really appreciate the help.

Alcoa aluminum wheels are typically rated at 110 psi. Steel wheels usually have no limitation.

I run with 90-95 psi front, 100-105 rear. If I'm headed North, I expect lower temps and use the high end of the range; Going to my sister's in NW MO for Christmas, I run 95 and 110, because of the temp differences from FL (70°) and MO (30°).

But in every case, I use the tire mfr's chart, not the generic Barth/Spartan chart.

Are we alone in the universe, or are we not? That is the question.

Thanks Rusty, I'll make those changes in the morning. 30 degrees @ Christmas in MO! We should be so lucky! Last Christmas it was around that
-15 to -20 degree area here. That's one of the reasons I got the Barth, maybe get down to that region Richard just got back from, boy would that be nice!!

Open your front grill and look for a tag from Spartan, My Barth tag says one thing and the Spartan says another.

On mine the Spartan tag says:

Front, 6,500
Rear, 13,500

Barth tag says:

Front, 6,000
Rear, 12,000

I have the Westport front axle which is rated at 7500 lbs and the rear axle is the Eaton 15040S which is rated at 15,000. Most Breakaways with the 4 speed Allison have the Dana 80 rear axle which is rated at 11,000 lbs. The longer Breakaways (32-34 ft)have the Eaton rear axle and have a higher rear rating similar to mine and if they use 22.5 tires could go to 15,000 +/- rear rating. The 19.5 tires are the limiting factor for me, but now that I have found a good LRG tire, that is no longer an issue.

I have Michelin XZA 8R19.5 LRF, on the back:
My rear dual tires rated @ 3305 X4 = 13,220, and front singles rated @ 3525 X2 = 7050.

I run these at 110 lbs. this is the full rating for both the tires and the wheels, I have Alcoa aluminum wheel.

I am changing them this week to Michelin XZE 225R70 19.5 LRG, I already have those on the front.

Their rating is:

Single 3970
Dual 3750

I will run these at at least 100 lbs and when full of racing gear I will run at 110 lbs all the way around. I will be right at 20,000 lbs.

The LRG tire on the front has proven to be a bit softer in the way it transmit noise back into the cabin. The LRF Bridgestones had a kinda "whack" sound when going over road cracks (and in California that is all we have is a lot of road cracks!) where as the LRG Michelin have more of a dull thump, not near as annoying.

If I had wider wheels (6.75") I would put on 245R70 19.5 LRG or LRH in the rear, I had a set of 2 made up in steel but they are way to heavy and I didn't like the look of painted steel or even with SS covers. I will stay with the Alcoa 6 inch wide wheel and the 225R70.

Even thou I have been running at max weight on the tires, I have gotten 60K+ miles on the rear, I would have gotten more then that on the front bu I had a strange wear on the outside of the passenger side front so I just replaced them earlier this spring.

HTH

For liability concerns you should NEVER overload a chassis as they are designed with a weight limit that is usually set to the braking conditions of the coach.

As the previous respondents have mentioned - there are safety margins built into a chassis.

No, I don't know what it is and no one in an official capacity with any mfg will tell you that for fear of the obvious lawsuits that would follow if you were involved in an accident.

To keep you from getting in over your head, you should always have a supplemental braking device on any towed vehicles being pulled by a motor home.

Tire limits for weight ratings are another key factor too. Don't scrimp on tires.

When changing brakes you can also opt for the more aggressive pad. The trade off is possible brake squeal and faster wearing of the rotor or drums.

Spring helpers or airbags will only increase axle carrying capacity in relationship to the leaf springs or coils that are holding it up. It will do nothing towards increasing the stopping power or the tire weight ratings.

As you can tell, there's more to it than a sticker or tag. It's not just the frame rails or steering components.

Simple things you can do will allow you to feel more comfortable with an overloaded chassis but none of these will NOT make it - not overloaded in the eyes of the law or a jury of your peers. If you are involved in a bad accident, and a lawyer can prove that you knew it was overloaded, you might as well give em your house and bank account info at the time of the accident.

Sorry to scare you, but I have to tell you the truth as defined by the reality we live in today.

Ed,Bill N.Y., there is a definate learning curve associated with Barth ownership and I really appreciate all the help everyone has given me.

I did look at the tag by the generator, the rear axle is a model 80 (Dana?) and the front is I60 the specs are the same as the data tag. I do have steel wheels with covers. When I get it load with what I consider would be an average load I will weigh it again. Then make adjustments as necessary. I usually try to error on the side of caution.

I do have a supplemental braking device although I doubt that I will do much towing. Probably put a bike (pedal) on the back and rent a car when needed on long trips. With the 28' length I don't know how many times I would need one. Bill, thanks for mentioning the liability senerio, something I would not have thought of.

I haven't had the opportunity to drive it much (about 100 miles) but so far it seems to brake very well. I took it out today for about a 30 mile jaunt because there were 20 - 30 mph winds and I wanted to see how it handled plus the power.

A little wobble on a few of the gusts, but very managable. Straight into the wind I had no problem with 60mph, not bad for 160hp!

Thanks everyone for the help, once again I know a whole lot more now than I did this morning

P.S. I sure love this Barth!!

Towing a toad or trailer with supplemental braking should only affect the weight rating of the coach in relation to the tongue weight, I would think. When I see some coaches outfitted with rear motorcycle carriers, I sometimes wonder if they have grossly exceeded their rear capacity. Not only might they have added 1000lbs of dead weight, but it is cantilevered over the rear in a way to increase the negative effects. Much better to tow a trailer weighing 5 times that weight as the trailer suspension is now responsible for its own load.

This brings up another point worth mentioning. Heavy stuff should be loaded in the center of the vehicle or at least over or between the axles to keep it from using the axle as a fulcrum. Same reason not to put the load in a pickup on the tailgate, at some point you might do a wheelie.

About a year ago I had my diesel generator taken out for repair and I was very aware that it might really upset the dynamics of my DP setup. It ended up feeling fine, but I only drove it 60 miles home and back in that state. I know they say ignorance is bliss, but it can also be deadly!

Corey, I too have often wondered about the extra weight I see hanging on the back of some coaches. With the long overhang that already exists on the 28' DP Breakaways I would be very hesitant to hang to much back there. That is why if anything I would opt for a lightweight Schwinn. It would be good enough to get around the campgrounds etc.

The previous owner did tow a car on a dolly without much problem, that is what he did on the 1000 mile delivery trip from Michigan to South Dakota.... but again with 160hp.. I will be interested in seeing where the weight is distributed when I fill the holding tank.. since it is under the couch between the axles. Actually it is closer to the front axle, I have more leeway there, so I am hoping that is where most of the weight will be.

One question that this discussion has brought to mind is, if most coaches are almost maxed out empty, why RV manufactures would design a coach with large basement storage, tons of cabinetry, but no capacity to put much in them! I am sure they could be designed to handle an anticipated average load of say 1000 lbs per axle over and above the fluid weights.

quote:

The previous owner did tow a car on a dolly without much problem, that is what he did on the 1000 mile delivery trip from Michigan to South Dakota.... but again with 160hp..

Well, the Tongue weight was probably adding less than 200lbs to your rear. As you pointed out, you still need to pull and stop it all.

Not for weight reasons, but did you consider mounting your bike off the front of the coach? It's easy to put a hitch up front that allows a bike rack to be used and you still have the rear hitch free to tow. I know they make racks for the ladder too, but that ladder is not much of a structure and easily damaged. I put a front hitch on my 5th wheel hauling truck and carried four bikes off the front. Wish I could get one of those drop-down ones from public buses for my Barth.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerald:
but again with 160hp..

Which could also explain the vehicle chassis weight ratings.

Speaking in general terms of course... Sometimes a lower HP unit will be rated for a lighter load and might be perfectly fine for braking and towing.

But, I believe, I've seen 160hp 5.9L on heavier units. Would need to check on it though.

I have a business friend who can reclassify a vehicle for a heavier load as he is an Equipment Builder of Custom Tow Trucks. Generally speaking, he calls the mfg and they'll tell him what he needs to do to increase the weight ratings. If he's done that same combo before he'll go by his notes. This point he certifies it and it becomes legal for that rating.

Here is a tag of a Barth that looks like it was reclassified for a heavier rating.



In this case the chassis was made by GM - Lengthened and reclassified by McCormick Motors for a heavier load rating by adding a tag axle and was then finished by Barth as a completed vehicle.

From what we can document, this is the earliest tag axle Barth.

This topic on weight has me reflecting back to a recurring discussion on slides. You can imagine how much weight a slide would add, and the effect of one side only having a slide is also worrisome. Despite this, the idea of a slide still has appeal. I found this excellent article that does a good job of describing the quandary (note the date):

TO SLIDE OR NOT TO SLIDE

THAT IS THE QUESTION

By: Frank (Bob) Gummersall

The latest motorhome delivery statistics show that over 70% of the new units are being built with at least one slide-out. There is no doubt that there is a large consumer demand for this new feature. I recently went through the process of deciding whether to get a slide-out on a new coach we were lucky enough to be able to buy. I did a lot of evaluation on the subject of motorhome slide-outs. I discovered a few positives and some significant negatives about slide-outs in motorhomes (not fivers or trailers) and I thought it would be worthwhile to share this information.

The Positives:

Living Space: There is no question that the added 20 to 64 square feet provides more living space since it is provided in the middle of the prime living space. New Coaches with an additional bedroom slide provide more space to get around the bed and perhaps the possibility to place the bed across the width of the coach.

Resale Value: If current trends continue, comparable used motorcoaches with a slide-out or two will fetch a higher percentage of initial purchase price than ones without any slid-out.

The Negatives:

Weight Each slide out adds over 600 lb. to the non-usable weight of the coach and therefore takes away from that precious weight capacity for us and our things. In some coaches the slide-outs add over 1000 lb. Many new coaches have less than the necessary carrying capacity even without the slide-out. A further difficulty is that the added weight is towards the front and on the street side. This makes it very difficult to balance the coach. Even the new Ford Chassis at 20,500 lb. GVWR will be challenged to carry this extra weight gracefully. Maybe a custom built Newell, Monaco, or Country Coach can take the additional weight, but I really question large slide-outs on any Gas Chassis.

Cost: A slide-out adds from $4,000 to $10,000 to the cost of the coach. Extended warranties on slide-out models cost 10 to 30% more than without slide-outs so someone know something about the risk of failure. Maybe we should pay attention to this concern.

Storage Space Loss: With every slide-out design you loose both inside and outside storage space. For full timers, this is very precious space to give up.

Safety: If you cut a large hole in any box there is a significant negative effect on the design integrity and strength. I have seen some slide-out models where the side-walls have sagged and the outside skin has delamintated or cracked because of the flexing at the critical corner points. If you have a serious accident and a roll over in a slide-out model of any motorhome, the chance for serious injury significantly increase.

Water and Dust: On a typical slide-out there is a lineal sealing distance of 48' where rubber gasket material is used to keep the water and dust out. In most slide-out designs , there is an awning that automatically extends to cover the trough created by the roof of a slide-out. I know of many problems reported by people with slide-out models of rain and dust damage caused by leaking gaskets. There is only one system I have seen that has some hope of providing a perfect seal when the slide is in and also when it is out. It uses an inflatable bladder, like a bicycle inner tube, that automatically inflates when the slide is extended or retracted and deflates during the moving process. This gasket system costs over $2000 just by itself and you will only find it one the most expensive luxury coaches. Because of imperfect seals some slide-outs cause a significant wind noise while the coach is in motion. Most slide-outs require the manual installation of some clamping devices to hold the slide-out in while the coach is moving.

Durability: Slide-outs use either electrical or hydraulic power to extend and retract and all have an emergency manual system to get you to the dealer if there is a failure. There is a law called the Murphy Law that says "if something bad is going to happen, and it will, it will always happen at the worst possible time". I have witnessed a situation where a slide mechanism failed at a camp ground, and the manual system would just not move the slide-out. The owner borrowed and 4x4 fence post and used it with a four wheel drive vehicle as a push rod, and literally pushed the slide-out back into the coach, so that he could depart the campground and get to a service location. This action caused some superficial damage to the side wall, but he did push it in. Keeping this mechanism operating can be a challenge. Just think about the vibration that Interstate 10 in Los Angeles can do to a large box placed in a whole in the side of motorhome with rubber gaskets. I also think that Kitchen Slide-outs have significantly more durability issues caused by the required for flexible plumbing, electrical, and gas lines. It is hard enough to keep all the connections tight in a normal coach, just think about fixing a leaking flexible sewer pipe or dealing with a flexibly gas line.

Usability: - The coach must be level for the slide to be used, or water will accumulate or the mechanism will bind. Not all camp sites will accommodate the additional space required by a slide-out. When parking at rallies, slide-out models require more room and will probably be charged more for space in the future.

Needless to say, my bride and I decided to go against the trend and buy a beautiful new coach without a slide-out. Lets face it, we are usually alone in the coach and have adequate room to move about. We do most of our entertainment under the awning in the fresh air because that's why we travel this way. I have talked with people who had purchased slide-out models that have had significant problems, even when they were brand new. Two owners decided to trade for a non-slide out coach at a hugh cost penalty to get away from the problems. I know that warranty departments at most of the RV manufacturers are overworked rebuilding slide-outs to try to make them work. At least half of the people I ask who have slide-out models say they will not get a slide-out on any new one.

My basic position is that it is not worth the negatives to get the few positives related to slide-out model motorhomes. I would be interested in any feed back that you may want to offer, so send it to bobg@cmn.net. Please give the make, model, and year of the subject coach with your feedback.

See you down the road..

UPDATE ON "TO SLIDE OR NOT TO SLIDE"

February 21,1999:

Since I posted the article on the pros and cons of Slide-outs on motor homes, I have had about 80 responses. Ten Newmar owners have reported zero (0) slide problems and I have been chided as not representing what is really happening to slides on coaches. Well I have had about 50 responses from owners that have had serious problems with slides and about half of them will not buy another coach with a slide out. I have heard from 20 fifth wheel trailer owners, most of whom indicated they would not have a fifth wheel without slide outs and that they have had minimal problems. 20 responses came from potential slide purchasers thanking me for pointing out the pros and cons. I will continue to collect any further comments and if things change, I will post another update.