FINALLY, solved the issue I've had with starter noise on our 454. When I got the coach, the starter sounded bad. It was a ministarter and it sounded like it was grinding up the flywheel. We put on starter after starter after starter, shimmed and shimmed in all combinations we could think of and still had the awful sound. I read every blog online I could find......finally the starter that worked was the 14th starter. The problem was fixed when I put on a starter with a 9 not 11 wheel drive.

First of all, my coach has Banks Power Pack headers which make it a bear to use the OE cast iron starter. But over the course of the 14 starters, we tried every option we could including full size OE starters, new Delco starters, rebuilt Delco starters and aftermarket new and rebuilt starters and new ministarters.

It seems the books at O'Reilly's and Autozone only show the original starter as the 11 tooth model. Finally, I looked on EBAY at all the starters that they said would fit the 454 for several years. I noticed that some were for 153 tooth flywheel only, some 168 tooth flywheels only, some were combination 153/168 tooth flywheels, some were 9 tooth drive and some were 11 tooth drives. Since I couldn't get any answer, I ordered 5 different starters. The starter I took off my coach was "the correct model per AutoZone". It was an 11 tooth ministarter and sounded awful. So, I tried a 9 tooth model. The unit I got was an newstyle, smaller, aftermarket Delco for a late 1990's 454 with a 9 tooth drive. I put it on and it sound GREAT!

Lesson learned: research, research, research. Don't listen to the idiots at the parts store. Their books can be wrong. Talk to old-time mechanics and get their opinions.

Hi!
What year is your chassis? The problem with some of the computers used by the parts guys is that the P30 is not listed, so they will try a C30 or an R30 as a hunch.

happy motoring!
Matt

well thats greay info . sorry you had so much problems !

I'm glad our members post stuff like this - nothing like a first hand account to help someone figure out something.

Thank you for the report.

For the next person:

You need to count flex plate teeth.

You need to count starter teeth.

You need to know if your starter mount bolts are in line or staggered.

You should use GM mounting bolts. They have shanks designed to hold the starter in exactly the right alignment.

The teeth of the starter pinion need to be .020 to .040 from bottoming out in the flex plate tooth trough. I measure mine with a large paper clip, straightened out. Many folks get lucky and the spacing is OK. A good mech can tell by listening. Shimming is how the adjustment is done. Some starters come with shims. They have bolt holes to keep them in position.

If poor pinion engagement is suspected, it can be checked by disconnecting the solenoid connection to the starter motor and energizing the solenoid with a jumper.

A direct ground from a starter mount bolt to the frame is often helpful.

Protect the starter from heat soak. Use the hi temp solenoid and Belleville washer/nut combination.

This is such a great post. This brought back some memories for me. Many years ago I hit a puddle with my old Catalina. It stalled the engine and must have engaged the starter and blew the bendix. I took off the starter and walked to the auto parts. I'm sure some of you remember when many auto parts stores had machine shops in the back and the guy behind the counter knew more about cars then you did. It was that kind of place. The guy said he would replace the bendix for me.

He got my starter fixed and I was on my way. The starter worked but didn't sound the same so I stopped back at the shop. The guy came out to listen to the starter and said STOP! Take it off. Then he proceded to chew me out for not cleaning the shim up better and pointed out that one of the bolts was wrong. We went back in the shop and he had me clean the shims in the parts washer. Then explained why the bolt was wrong and got 2 new ones. He took a copper wire and flatened it a bit with a hammer and check it with a caliper. We went back out and put it all together. He showed me how to check the clearance of the bendix and flywheel with that wire and said to put it in my tool box for next time. Worked perfect.

For those too young to know about it, this was from a time when businesses practiced this thing called "customer service". It was used to make you come back and spend money with them. It worked too. I really miss it.

Bill h, I made a note from your post in my parts log, thanks.

K&E, Thanks for share this.

Bill N.Y., Thanks for Barthmobile!

quote:

Originally posted by Bones:
This brought back some memories for me. Many years ago I hit a puddle with my old Catalina. It stalled the engine and must have engaged the starter and blew the bendix.

It is likely that a wet distributor cap caused a cross fire which resulted in engine kickback when a restart was attempted. I have seen starter noses split from this, as well as damaged sprag clutches, on open engine rumpety-rump boats. The most common scenario was an open engine ski boat with a tow attach somewhere above the distributor. When an inexperienced or uncoached person pulled in the ski rope, water dripped on the distributor cap.

Jag sixes had the aluminum water outlet right above the distributor. Leakage onto the cap would sometimes cause a kickback and wreck a starter.

I always wondered what happened with that starter and the puddle. One of the reasons I didn't like the distributor up front on that Pontiac 400. Bill, your senario is very likely when I think back.

For the auto parts stores, their ability to supply the proper part is only as good as their database. At Auto Zone, the counter people only know how to look up a part number and what shelf the part is on. Typical these days since companies don't seem to want to invest anything in their staff.

My Napa has a good crew working there, better than Auto Zone. The Carquest has a machine shop but they have been having a hard time finding someone who knows what they're doing. CQ often doesn't have the parts I need instock so I'm forced to look elsewhere.

One thing is for sure, I'll be counting flywheel starter teeth when the time comes...and it will.

quote:

Originally posted by Bones:
I always wondered what happened with that starter and the puddle. One of the reasons I didn't like the distributor up front on that Pontiac 400. Bill, your senario is very likely when I think back.

A good preventive measure for those who drive through puddles is silicone spray whenever damp conditions or splashing is likely.

Another avenue to explore is to see if that engine or similar was used in an SUV or 4WD. These vehicles are likely to be driven through creeks, etc, and often are fitted with a distributor splash guard. For example, a Toyota street car can be fitted with a splash shield from a 4Runner with the same engine.

Dow Corning made a silicone spray that really worked. They also made a spray adhesive that really worked. The cans were similar. .........Guess what can I grabbed when Susan said her car was balky starting, after coming home from work one dark winter evening..............

The next time I looked under the hood in daylight, I thought I had been the victim of a Silly String attack, or the underhood area had been sneezed on by a sick triceratops.

The good news is that the ignition remained moisture-prof for quite a while.

quote:

My Napa has a good crew working there.

Yeah, NAPA seeems to have quite a variety of people. Some are quite good. The one I go to is not the closest, but they really know their stuff. It also helps to have a NAPA account so you can research online first.

quote:

One thing is for sure, I'll be counting flywheel starter teeth when the time comes...and it will.

FWIW, all my big blocks have the big number of teeth. My one and only small block hasn't been counted yet. I shoulda done it when I had it off recently to replace the rear main seal.

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:
My one and only small block hasn't been counted yet. I shoulda done it when I had it off recently to replace the rear main seal.

If you're not having a grinding noise issue before hand - Shouldn't you just count the teeth on the starter instead?

9 or 11 sounds better than counting 153 or 168 - I know the second I start counting a flywheel, my wife will come out and start telling me what she did for each hour of the day, how many street lights she drove through, how long she waited on a line or how much money she saved me by spending it... by the end of that conversation I'll have either a 46 or 279 tooth flywheel and I might be sleeping on the couch

Bill h,

I can relate to the grabbing the wrong container without reading first...

Reminds me of the time one morning before I put my glasses on...
I grabbed the toothpaste....
thought it looked different....
tried brushing my teeth....

all the sudden I had this bad "pucker"

it was Preparation H.....

quote:

Originally posted by Bill N.Y.:
If you're not having a grinding noise issue before hand - Shouldn't you just count the teeth on the starter instead?

Probably. I lean toward overkill. The penalty for overkill is, well, "How lucky do ya feel?"

quote:

I know the second I start counting a flywheel, my wife will come out and start telling me what she did for each hour of the day, how many street lights she drove through, how long she waited on a line or how much money she saved me by spending it... by the end of that conversation I'll have either a 46 or 279 tooth flywheel and I might be sleeping on the couch

Susan knows that my time lying underneath a vehicle is my thinking and meditation time. She does not disturb me unless one of the kids calls. Or if I get too relaxed and the creeper is slowly easing down my sloped driveway. She does not want me asleep in the street on a creeper.

quote:

Originally posted by K&E:
Bill h,

I can relate to the grabbing the wrong container without reading first...

Reminds me of the time one morning before I put my glasses on...
I grabbed the toothpaste....
thought it looked different....
tried brushing my teeth....

all the sudden I had this bad "pucker"

it was Preparation H.....

Always buy the largest tube of toothpaste you can find.

thank you so much for the info , I foung out I had an 11 tooth starter instead of 9 tooth, and I took my starter with me when I went to get a new one too but I guess they never checked it just looked it up in a book, hopefully my prob solved when I go back and get a 9 tooth , I'll let ya know but I have a good feeling its going to work right now that I know what the problem is

I recently bought my 87 Barth Regal, 454. The first time I started it, I heard the starter slip and grind. I stay in a campground, so I moved it to new site and it sat for about 2 weeks before I tried to start again. Battery was low so I had to jump it. It was slipping and grinding, but it started and I ran it for a while to charge battery. Then I put battery on charger and it sat for a few more days. Tried to start again and got lots of noise but started and ran for 10 minutes. Called mechanic over and tried to start and more noise then free spin. Pulled the starter, discovered it was from Napa,9 tooth and the housing had broken. Maybe 6 months old, previous owner had replaced when heads were replaced.

I had researched and read this post before it broke but I remembered it as the 11 tooth being the right one, so I said Ah Ha,need to get an 11 tooth. Auto Zone only had 9 tooth so he sent me to a starter shop. These guys appear to know their business, doing rebuilds on a large scale. They explained that what I had was OME up to mid 90's, big, heavy and one piece shaft. In mid 90's they went to a smaller design with two piece shaft. (I don't know if that makes it a mini-starter)This newer one has 11 teeth but it is a larger diameter gear, allowing more teeth, but still the same pitch.

Put the new starter in, more noise. Put 2 shims in, more noise. Went to take a shim out and I asked mechanic if there was a problem with ring gear. On closer inspection, we found 3 broken teeth. New 168 tooth flex plate (flywheel) is ordered and due in tomorrow. Mechanic can't get back here with trans jack until Tues.

I will keep this updated and watch for any replies. I am grateful for having this site to work with, Thank You All.