Greetings everyone,I just bought my 1st motor home,a 1987 Barth model R22. I bought it off e-bay last Tuesday,I went to see it for the first time today,Its going to need a good cleaning up on the inside but besides being dirty every thing looks to be in good shape. the biggest problem I see is the undercarriage,This coach must of spent all of its 136,000 miles traveling the north east in the winter following a salt truck. Most of the light sheet metal is rusted away or barely there. I was under the impression that these were all aluminum. Boy was I wrong. My question is How much of this motor home is steel and how much alum. and how is it constructed. The damage looks to be from the floor level down. Also does anybody Know if a body panel parts list exists? or have pictures of the underbody so I can have a better idea of what I have to fabricate to rescue this beast,or is it worth doing I only paid $2500, what are these worth in restored condition? I will greatly appreciate any and all advice.
To be continued, Dave R.

Welcome to the forums! Most of Barth's superstructure is aluminum, but the underbody, at least on mine, is steel. On mine, the substructure for the front is steel, and much has rusted out, but plenty is left, so I've acid-primed it and sprayed with cold galvanizing primer, then epoxy paint.

Sheetmetal, like compartment panels, is also steel. Fortunately, on mine, it's held up pretty well, having been undercoated.

There is, AFAIK, no parts list for any of the Barth body pieces.

As long as the frame hasn't rusted out, most components can be replaced, with considerable effort in many cases.

The superstructure is all-aluminum, so work on the underbody is the main concern; the topsides won't fall apart faster than the restoration.

Fully restored, the coach might fetch $5,000, but the market for any RV right now is in the toilet, even for Barths and the jumbo coaches like Newell, Beaver, Prevost, Marathon, and Foretravel.

Did you get this coach from Murray's Auto Recycling Center?

If it is, we have a member here who went up and looked at it before bidding and reported severe rusting of the frame.

Here is our thread on that coach.

Thanks for the responses Bill and Rusty, owwwwch! Wish I saw that post before I committed my self, it was very muddy there yesterday really couldn't get under that side to see the frame, the guy did tell me it needed a generator. So now I'm at the cross roads and I have a choice to make and I need your knowledge and everybody else's out there in Barth world. My choices are, #1. Donate This Beast to charity and hopefully still be able to claim it on next years taxes. Or #2 Take on this orphan and labor of love and restore her. I am capable of doing all the work myself, although my experience has been with cars and trucks. I do have a rust free 1989 P 32 gruman step van to use as a donor for the frame and making the swap doesn't scare me, my concern is getting info. on where to get hardware, (ie: original latches, hinges ect.) and all the other things that are sure to come up. I would like to keep the original appearance as much as possible. I would also need help with pictures of what is missing so I can replace the lower body, this time out of alum. and stainless steel, Long Island is loaded with metal maggots also. Most of all I will need your prays and encouragement, It looks like I am going to need allot of it.

Thanks again, Dave R.

First off, I wouldn't doubt what you see in the photo as I didn't photoshop it.

Second, what we might be seeing here is a inner metal box for the generator as I don't see the front leafspring mount. It could be an optical slight from this angle.

Check with Jack at his PM link as he took those photos. I think the one hole with what looks like a bolthead might be the spring hanger and if it is, then you'll need to check behind there to see the frame.



Good luck and please keep us posted, we're all friends here and Jack lives up in that neck of the woods. He's a great guy (We've met) and I'm sure he would be willing to help you out some. Couldn't hurt to ask.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
My choices are, #1. Donate This Beast to charity and hopefully still be able to claim it on next years taxes.

I wouldn't count on this scenario.

My personal rule of thumb when buying a vehicle, any kind of vehicle, is 'If it's mechanical, that's easy to fix. Body work can be fixed,too, but it's like cancer, you fix one area and it raises it's ugly head somewhere else." (This said by a guy who has had over 30 skin cancer operations, some rather extensive) Also, a vehicle in this condition, has been exposed to a lot of corrosive materials (i.e. road salt). IMHO, you'll never get to the end of it. With prices the way they are, you can find a very nice Barth in the $5000/$6000 range and use the one you have as a parts vehicle or, as you suggested, donate it. But even the donation is problematic since you would be donating a problem to someone else. I can almost guarantee you'll have much more than $6000 invested in the one you have if you try to repair all the rusted metal. Why not buy a nice mid 80's Regal with a 454? You'll love it.

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RUN!

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Dave R,
I have what might be the most comparable Barth to yours, in terms of age and condition. 1986 Chevrolet chassis, 1987 Barth. Mine had been sitting behind a state police barracks for a decade with no attention.

Also, I had spoken on the phone with the departed owner, and he sent me a flyer about his Barth when he was alive. I will have to clean my office and find it for you. I seem to recall that both the engine and the transmission were replaced within the last 50K miles. You also have a wider than usual entry door, which might serve you well in case you want to add/subtract large things inside.

So, on a bright note, with EBay and Craigslist, you will easily find the chassis items you might need, at excellent prices if you pick and choose. I got a "new old stock" carburetor for about $180. How about an NOS fuel pump for $9?

Above the floor line, other than the Barth aluminum and fiberglass and cabinetry, everything is still provided by third party vendors. Compartment compression latches: Southco. Fridge, Dometic or Norcold, whatever fits. Plumbing, anyone. Voltage Isolator, anyone. Power converter, anyone. Satellite TV: Motosat or KVH. Awnings: anyone. Windows: Hehr (you can get good deals from RV mfr liquidations these days). Furnace, water heater, water tanks: anyone. Windsheild: GMC. Headlight structures: Cadillac. AC compressor: Sanden TM15HD.

From the floor line below, the exterior sheet metal is aluminum. It is supported by 1" square steel tubing. The compartments on the outside are made from steel, or in my case rust. I put down an layer of luan, and I won't carry heavy objects there until I do the right job right. I can take some pictures for you if needed of the compartments and the framing for the exterior below the floor line.

At several or many points along the chassis frame rails, the Barth structure is bolted to the Chevrolet chassis. You'd need to yank the carpet out or pull up a luan on the floor to access the bolt heads. [if you want to put it on the '89 chassis you have.] The floor is a "sandwich" of plywood, insulation, aluminum framing, and aluminum sheet metal underneath. Stress points on the aluminum sheet metal pan underneath, such as riveted cable holders are where the metal maggots start eating. If it isn't too bad, perhaps another layer can be patched here and there, with some undercoating then applied.

The biggest concern is not whether the P32 frame is rotted or not, that is easy to see and assess. And repair or reject upon your review. The biggest concern is the steel lines bringing braking force to the corners, and fuel to the carburetor. There is no substitute for safety, especially with vehicles weighing many tons, and a brake system overhaul should be contemplated.

Option #3, you didn't consider: gut it, part out the components. Save some of the parts for when you put the aluminum house on your other frame.

>I am capable of doing all the work myself, although my experience has been with cars and trucks.
An HEI is the same on this as it was on a '75 Camaro.

>I do have a rust free 1989 P 32 gruman step van to use as a donor for the frame
I believe the '85 to '89 P32 chassis has many identical parts. There have been questions if the frame rail width on the RV was the same as on the van.

>my concern is getting info. on where to get hardware, (ie: original latches, hinges ect.) and all the other things that are sure to come up.
The original mfrs can be often found, and many things can be found on EBay. There is also a giant RV scrapyard in Missouri. Colaws I think. But don't be fixated on 'original', if you can find a suitable quality replacement. (for the right price, of course)

>I would like to keep the original appearance as much as possible.
It is going to be a matter of triage. If you want it running, make is safe, then make it functional, then deal with optimizing the human factors and enjoyment matters. You will never get your money back on this, when you factor in what your time is worth, but on the other hand, if you want to keep it for decades, you can. And if you want to create the memories that an RV trip can create, you can do it with the Barth you built, or go and pay $500K for a Monoco, or pick something less expensive. But bang for the buck, and the Barth will get you there, with your time and effort. If your state has an excise tax, like Massachusetts, well, some guys pay more for their yearly excise tax than I have in to my Barth.

I refer to the SOBs (something other than Barths) as the 'organ doners' of the RV world. The fiberglass will deteriorate, the particle board will get wet, and the thing will rot away. You could turn your Barth in to a goat shed, and only the Jensen roof vents will leak. You can take a Dometic fridge out of one of the SOBs and use it, if the price is right on it. No one ever considers maintaining or restoring a fiberglass RV (other than maybe the GMC RV of the 1970s), it is a futile task. Only a few brands should be considered for being kept alive, Barth, Newell, Prevost....

The idea of walking away from this one is something to be considered, and it was suggested you find something else from the mid '80s with a 454.
http://www.google.com/search?h...ist.org&start=0&sa=N
That link will give you some idea of the options out there, which look like they are from $6K to over $20K. You have to decide what is right for you financially and timewise. Are there hidden problems in any of those? I don't know. But if you perform the restoration you might be contemplating, you can be sure that you won't have that 10 inch section of rubber hose, which has been in place for 20 years, between the fuel tank and steel lines, causing you a headache. And if you go all out with a safety-oriented restoration of your Barth, you can best protect yourself against brake-fade, such as noted here: http://barthmobile.com/eve/for...1087061/m/1781068762 . Buying something else, and paying retail or making a private deal, still does not gaurantee you have a turn-key solution to RV enjoyment. How tolerant are you of risk and uncertainty? If you like doing it yourself, can do it yourself, have the time for doing it yourself, then do it yourself.

>Most of all I will need your prays and encouragement, It looks like I am going to need allot of it.
You got it! You will also need chassis wiring diagrams!
Matt

Thanks Matt, I really appreciate this site, I only been a member about a week and everyone has been so helpful, be fore you go to the trouble of snapping and sending the pictures. I do have another option, I am negotiating a deal for a 1988 28' "utility Barth". So I will need some more help. The tag # is 8805-3537-27s-37 could use some help decoding, the vin # is 1gbkp37w8j3314743, if I am reading this write I'm thinking its a 27' ? How hard do you think it will be to swap the stuff from the 22' to this one . windows, bath etc., Bill, what advice can you give me since you already been though this ? Is the construction the same i.e.: wall thickness, floors, roof ect. Any and all advice is always welcome.

Thanks Dave R.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
...The tag # is 8805-3537-27s-37 could use some help decoding...if I am reading this write I'm thinking its a 27'

8805 is a May 1988 Produced Coach. 3537 was the production sequence of all Barths produced beforehand. Yes, the next number does place your coach at 27' long. The S37 is unknown but is believed to mean S:Specialized, 37:Floorplan Type

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
...the vin # is 1gbkp37w8j3314743,

This was the standard chassis for a 1988 Regal or its Commercial/Specialized counterpart... It's a Class 4: 14,001-16,000 lb, P32 Motorhome Chassis, It came with a 454 and has Hydraulic Brakes.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
How hard do you think it will be to swap the stuff from the 22' to this one . windows, bath etc., Bill, what advice can you give me since you already been though this ?

What's your background like and do you have the patience? As the saying goes... "Anythings Possible" to which I add "But is it practical?" The year models we are talking about all have heavy external rivets showing. Swapping around window panels might not be too easy if you want to stick them in the middle of a wall stud that also happens to contain all of the house or vehicle wiring in it.

Myself, I left all windows alone and conformed my floorplan around how I would use it and where the windows fell.

Advice on windows... Remove one and look at the construction. Aluminum will bend so make sure you support around where you're going to place a window.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
Is the construction the same i.e.: wall thickness, floors, roof ect.

For my unit, the answer is yes. Everything seems comparable to it's Regal Counterpart.

Here is a picture of the body construction. Notice the wiring and location of window openings?



It has been said that there are over 2100 buck rivets in each coach.



Each rivet required 2 men people to install and are know as "Buck Riveted Construction". The phrase "Aircraft Construction" has been used in Barth Literature to describe this construction technique.

Some additional pics of Barth "body innerds" can be seen at:


http://barthmobile.com/eve/for...1087061/m/1841085203

Thanks Lee for the info. and Bill N.Y. for your answers. My background : currently I work in the pharmaceutical industry, Trouble shooting,rebuilding and modifying production machinery, my expertise is control wiring. I also teach welding and plumbing from time to time at B.O.C.E.S., I was a partner in a Jaguar restoration shop that specialized in E-Types for Three years but that's a part of my life I would like to forget. My hobbies are wood working and slot cars and it seems now motor homes. I have my own arc,mig, and tig welders, oxy/acetylene torches,sand blaster,glass beader, a full set of mechanics,plumbers,and carpenters hand tools. and access to a machine shop. The only thing I'm short on is Time, I need a functional RV ready for a trip to Indy for the 500 that only gives me 8 weeks. So I'm still hoping that the 22' will work for now . My plan is to get it home, clean it up, Go thru the mechanicals to make it safe and functional,install a generator (possibly barrowed from the 27 footer ?) then I will decide which way to go whether rebuild the 22 or convert the 27. (http://raleigh.en.craigslist.org/rvs/1047955688.html) If you check out this coach you can see why I was interested in swapping out the windows. But who knows if the 22 works out .I will find another use for the 27 or if I haven't had enough punishment possibly find another downer?

You probably all think I'm nuts and probably are rite,but it keeps me sane. Dave R.

The designation of "nuts" can apply to any owner of a vintage vehicle. However, with Barths, in most cases (not applicable to your 22'), repairs can be made faster than the coach falls apart, mainly because Barths' superstructures are basically bulletproof.

If it were I, I'd concentrate on bringing the 27' to life, as the frame issues with the 22' are, IMHO, enough to classify as "dangerous".

Dave: We are regulars at the INDY 500 and park at the 16th street Lot 3 Paved near the southwest Vista. Look for us when you come- we'd love to meet and Barthsh*t with you.

Hello Tom K. I will look for you at indy, Look forward to checking out " Emersome Barths with ya"

Dave R.