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Glassnose Aficionado 2/09 |
Dave has kicked this around with me and some of the other guys and on different threads, so I thought I'd start a new one so we can hear from some more of our esteemed colleagues regarding the beautiful coaches that won't sell even for half what they should. At the risk of incuring the wrath of some, could we keep this a wide open discussion with no off limits such as political or ecinomical climates? When a coach of the caliber of the Mays rebuild or Mikes fine Regal can't fetch the price of a Base Hyundai, something is wrong! Hopefully now that the big auction is over this will give you all a chance to keep the fingers limber and give the ol' thinker something to contemplate. I'm sure Dave will back me in requesting that you keep it civilized and respectful of your fellow Barthers. Hoping for some insightful, intelligent discourse, Danny Z ------------------ Dan & Suzy Z '81 Euro 28 | ||
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I believe that the COST of service, and what I have heard in the DELAY of quality sevice is a factor. When comparing RV's to car's it is normal for us the public to be fearful of any car after a few years of age. In my business of renting NEW cars I see everyday people renting because they fear their 5 year old car is not ROAD WORTHY. Often they have only 75 thousand miles on same, but yet the owner does not trust it. It concerns me to read all the posts on RV sites telling of all the PROBLEMS. When you stop and think of all the RV's on the road and compare that with the number you see BROKE DOWN, the problem does not seem to be there, but yet the posts are full of stories. MOST RV owners are NOT going to attempt any major repairs, and shops are so costly, and so hard to get into that I wonder if that isn't playing a role in pricing. We know SLIDES have been a HUGE factor too. Both of my brothers have high end coaches, and both can tell you that service WAIT is a major problem, and when you add that to the fact so many shops will not work on the coach in a timely fashion if you purchased it elsewhere the problem is serious. Can't forget the JUNK that is out there too, and it makes others look bad also. JUST MY OPINION. | ||||
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"First Year of Inception" Membership Club |
When I sold RV's for 15 minutes one time I recognized immediately that everyone wants slides. Even in $18K Cherokee travel trailers people want that extra room. I know I have heard some of the long time Barth owners say "I wouldn't have a slide under any circumstance", "slides are just a passing fancy". Well, I don't think so. Also prices. Now I would rather have that 40 foot Regency, well maybe a 38 foot more than any other coach out there because I know the difference. But you take a new RV owner and show him that 40 foot with 155K miles for $62K and then walk over and show him a 36 foot Forest River Georgetown with three slides, 8.1L Chevy engine, ducted air, rear camera, surround sound, 27 inch flat screen and 19 in. in the bedroom for under $65K. I know what I would take, I and most educated folk would go for the Barth. But the average dude or dudette will jump at the Georgetown.. But add to that the economy. I think economy's are cyclical and product driven. If you look at every economic boom in American history they have been product driven. The auto (early 1900's, modern appliance, frig, washer dryers, housing, aviation, Boeing etc. (post WWII) Electronics and telecommunication, (late 80's into the 90's. Add a few wars in the that kicked up the economy some and there is a basic guide to 100 years of American economy. At the moment there are not any products which are spurring the US economy. A few years ago they actually thought that HDTV would be it. But I am typing on the same compaq Presario I have had for 4-5 years. This after buying 2-3 computers a year from 1982 on. In other words we need to invent something that every one "has" to have. I am all for personal flying machines. How about an anti-gravity Segway.... | |||
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 12/12 |
Danny, As one who always enjoys giving an opinion when I don’t have to defend it, I offer the following observations from my perspective……. First, I think the basic premise might be a little flawed. ….. “coaches that won't sell even for half what they should…..” isn‘t really the issue. Rather, it might be…..“coaches that won’t sell even for half of what we WANT”…… In an unrestricted free market, fair price is whatever is ultimately decided between seller & buyer - when both sides are satisfied, a fair-deal has been struck…..Might not be MY idea of a fair price, but if I’m not buyer or seller, I need to realize that market-setting is not a spectator sport. Example: Glen’s newly acquired beauty? … During our little Price-Is-Right foolishness, the vast majority of us Barth-savy participants actually predicted it would sell for LESS than the final bid…....Doesn’t mean Glen got shafted or the seller was a bandit. It just means that particular coach was worth that particular amount at that particular time to a particular someone. Thanks to the net, the market is even more open today, as geographic limitations have been greatly altered. And Dave's site here, if anything, has probably enhanced market exposure for our unique machines. Misc. factors: 1. Throw-Away-Society: There’s a slew of manufacturers out there today pumping out thousands of units. Like the burger, they’re assembled with a new-age work force, many with work clothes still damp from the swim. New technology & methods have trumped the skilled Barth tradesmen of decades ago. Economy-of-scale has put these new & fairly new units within reach of most yuppy families, to be used for a year or two and then simply disposed of for that new SUV, pool, time-share, or whatever……..Long range quality seems to be diminishing as a requirement and a standard……. 2. Instant-Gratification: The incremental movin’-on-up scenario seems to be gone. In my day, it was a tent, then a pop-up, then a small trailer, then a Class-C and then a Class-A. Today it’s a new 40 foot DP with four slides right outta the chute…..And they want to turn the key and go - and none of this fix-it-yourself stuff - that’s what dealers are for. In this environment, it’s tough for 10-25 year old units to compete, regardless of original quality & previous care. Besides, Barths don’t have near enough buttons, switches, lights, sound & video systems and other electronic goodies to catch the attention of today's buyer. 3. Buyer-Sophistication: Or lack thereof……Read some of the posts on the generic RV forums. You’ll realize that many folks today are clueless about their own units. I swear, there’s a few that I pray I’ll never have to converge with on a two-lane highway. It’s not their fault - good marketing has convinced them that their new motor home is nothing more than an SUV with a bed and toilet - just fuel it and hit the road. The typical Barth owner certainly knows differently…….. 4. Orphan-Stigma: The newest true Barths are approaching a decade - most are older - some are nearing the three-decade-plus mark……A service-minded society wants to be able to look-up their local Barth dealer in the Yellow Pages when things go a-kilter…..Since that ain’t gonna happen, market demand decreases. I own my Barth ‘cause I’m an eccentric……it goes with a wood boat, a 1948 airplane and a Cushman Eagle. I also know I’ll need to constantly tinker, but for me, that’s as much satisfaction as the road trips……….But, unlike the folks at the Classic Winnebago site, I won’t spend my life fighting wall delamination, or blown-out windshields at the Pace Arrow site, or that infernal drive-train at the GMC site…..Nope, I’ll just tinker, adjust and upgrade my Barth to my heart’s content. And when I sell, I’ll probably think I’m taking a bath, but in reality I’ll be getting fair market value……… Eccentricity ALWAYS has its price……..  | |||
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Back in 96 I called Barth RSV and ordered a compartment seal. It came in a couple of days, and I installed it myself. I can't call them today.... | ||||
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"When a coach of the caliber of the Mays rebuild or Mikes fine Regal can't fetch the price of a Base Hyundai, something is wrong!" The Hyundai has 10 years/100,000 mile warranty, while the prospective Barth buyer expects something major to break the minute he buys. As above, buyers don't understand the mechanicals (especially diesels) and fear them so buy new & cheap. Financing probably plays a part: New is X$ down, X$ per month, unload it within 3 years...an "old" Barth has iffy resale value. Most folks lack pride and confidence, and buy accordingly. ------------------ "You are what you drive" - Clint Eastwood [This message has been edited by Gunner (edited March 07, 2005).] | |||
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| The Old Man and No Barth |
Lots of wisdom here. Lee's comments are especially astute. FMV is determined when a willing buyer and a willing seller sgree on a price. As a rule, we all think whatever we own is worth more than it is. Whatever I end up with in my Barth, I figure that if I drive it off a cliff, I will have lost less than the depreciation on a new rig of similar quality, the moment I drive it off the dealer's lot. [This message has been edited by olroy (edited March 07, 2005).] | |||
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| 12/07 |
I think Lee hit it right on.. I found in my search for my RV a true throw away society.. Most people could not understand why I would consider an 80's RV when I could pick up a late 90's at the same price... Most people want it now and are not willing to do the homework or research.. We get it with dogs people do not want to wait for a quality litter that will be ready in 8 weeks they therefore go to a pet store and pay double and get no quality... Also I paid 2.09 for gas last night and the word is it is going to go even higher.. Like my other purchases I buy for the long haul... I figured buy it now and things eventually will get better...People are looking at that and hearing how they get 5 miles to the gallon and say forget it.. they forget the hotel bill savings.. Most people do not know what a BArth is as you see so few but since I have had mine in the driveway I have had alot of comments and questions and they all can not believe it is an 86.... SO I'll say timing is everything and selling at the right time in the right area is critical.. Alot of people told me to go to Fla or Az and check out the lots... with the internet you can check the country .. with this list you have lots of eyes and ears... But people are in a hurry... so here are my reasons 1 Gas 2 wanting it now 3 no sence of quality as the idea is to use it and get rid of it (short term ownership) 4 No pride in ownership 5 Cheap is better I do not agree that slide outs are that important.. the dealers push them but Me as a buyer looked at them as another thing that could go wrong... And mechanics are very hard to find especially one who knows what he is doing...Remember I am not a mehanic and thus farm out 95% of my work... Remember also My suburban has 235000 miles on it and the Jeep has 127000 on it and then I have a 63 and a 69 corvette...so I guess that explains where I come from..Just my 2 cents ------------------ John Reilly Big Times Kennel Centerville Ohio If you see this... You found me  | |||
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| First Month Member 11/13 |
I think a lot of shoppers are afraid of an orphan. They seem to think that if the company is still in business, they can get parts. I have owned three RVs from the largest RV manufacturer in the US over a period of twenty-some years. I had no luck at all buying parts from them. Not even if I showed up at their factory. They were useless as far as any kind of customer support or parts sales went. Heck, they didn't even have wiring diagrams. I learned from checking others' RVs that the same yaer and model was wired differently, according to who did it. Even the best RV shop I knew (and he is very good) couldn't get parts from them. I guess my point is that shoppers are more afraid of Barth being an orphan than they need be. The fact that a manufacturer is still operating may not be worth much. And Barths don't deteriorate like so many others. | |||
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Something that you might concider , you can take a Tech course for not a whole lot of money and fix almost anything on your coach yourself . Lets face it the guy that works for the RV shops didnt work at JPL before he got hired there . Most everything is very simple and common sence comes in handy . If you look into the problems you might have and study it , take the TECH course you will save money and have some fun doing it. Motorhome Magazine runs the AD and I think its less than $1000., for deisel side just find an independent guy that works on equipment and youll get a better job for half the money unless its major then go to CUMMINS or God forbid you have a CAT . | ||||
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This is a great subject!!! The key to this is the consumer is going to buy what looks good to them and fits their needs with the layout that works for them. Slides add space so that it feels like you are at home. I have seen some wide bodies, with the larger slides, that have almost as much room as my living room at home. People do not like to feel confined in small spaces. Most people want new so that they do not have to pay for repairs or do not have to deal with a brake down. If you talk to most auto consumers they know nothing about the quality of the auto but go for looks, cost and comfort to sit in and drive. Due to this most people do not see the value of an older, quality motor home! Too bad, as if you all bought new you have a large loss, if you bought used you got a great bargin! Quality has nothing to do with it, look at the quality and prices of some of the houses being built today. Jeff [This message has been edited by jefflarsen (edited March 07, 2005).] | ||||
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| "First Year of Inception" Membership Club |
You're right with the housing comparison. We live in the most expensive neighborhood in Minnesota. Now before you quit sending those donations we have lived in this house for 23 years and it is, (I think) the smallest cheapest house in town. Jack Nicklaus built a big golf community here called Bearpath and the homes start at way over a Million. So believe it or not the $300K-400K houses have cruddy woodwork and linoleum kitchen floors. So the point is that if you look at the $500-700K Country Coaches and then look at a Winnebago Adventurer the Adventurer starts to look really cheap. Don't even try to compare the construction with a Barth, especially the woodwork and the skeletal construction. ------------------   | |||
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Ahhh! I love this forum. Why did we buy a Barth after shopping heavily for a Foretravel...we chose Barth because of the retro style, many, many discussion with RV owners and repair shops, BUT MOST of all...this website. We knew we were getting an orphan; we knew the risk with a 15 year old coach but dove in any way. Lonnie and I have had many hours of discussion while sitting in the campground and watching what comes and goes. The very first day we owned our coach (with in 12 hours) we were at a music festival using it, we were completely fearless. The coach next to us was a Festiva(?) Winnebago...I think. It was brand new BUT guess where the owners were, inside our Barth. They just loved it. Lonnie and I were so proud to sit there and think geeeeez they have...hum...$65,000 to $75,000 wrapped up just so they can get a warranty (their words not ours). Do you know how many repair bills you can pay for that kind of money. EVEN IF you have a two year warrantee, you will still be inconvenience if something goes wrong on a trip. We would MUCH rather have our small investment in our Barth, take great pride in ownership and be the gem of the campground. Think of what the value is of the "pride" is...at a music festival of 300 campers there was a new $400,000 Monaco sitting across from us and there were more curiosity seekers around us, then them. It does your heart and pocket book good to have the only Barth among 300 campers. Think of the hours or a discussion it leads to...after all who doesn’t like to talk about their coach. Pride (and a smaller payment) is worth a lot in our book...but then Lonnie still has his very first car...and that gives him a lot of satisfaction too. Eccentric, old fashion and very happy!!! Oh...and still in our mid- fourties. Wisdom comes from listening not from age...and boy there is a lot of wisdom here at Barthmobile just waiting to be heard. [This message has been edited by whamer (edited March 08, 2005).] | ||||
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| The Old Man and No Barth |
I have to agree with everything whamer says, and I detect a trait of character running through this thread. Many of us have an affinity for old and good stuff. A couple have old airplanes, several have old cars or boats, many do their own maintenance, and are restorers. In my life, I've restored/maintained old cars, boats, and airplanes, and have prided myself on being able to do those things. The old body isn't up to as much of that any more, it takes me a week to do a half-day's work, but I haven't quit yet. I do wonder, considering the subject of this thread, if some astute marketing types could figure out a way to focus our marketing efforts on an audience of folks with similar characteristics, though not necessarily RV-ers. | |||
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