And how many of those "MBA's" worked their way up through the ranks?

quote:

Don't GM's losses include those of subsidiaries like GMAC?

GMAC is not owned by GM. It is owned by Cerberus Capital Management out of NYC. It is a hedge fund. As part of the deals being done (that you and I will pay for), the loans now being made to Cerberus are going to be insured by the FDIC (so much for a focus on deposit insurance). So if you ever wonder what happened to your retirement funds, think Cerberus.

Cerberus is very well 'connected' and at one time were in the bidding for Blackwater Security, until a few dozen civilians were shot in Baghdad. Cerberus is presently the largest contractor in Afghanistan to the US govt. In my hometown, some of the foreclosed homes are ending up in Cerberus ownership.

Matt

And they are going to turn these companies around by producing the small fuel efficient vehicles Americans want.

Top 10 selling vehicles in the United States last year. Yep, lots of small fuel efficient vehicles listed here.

* Ford F-Series: 515,513
* Chevy Silverado: 465,065
* Toyota Camry: 436,617
* Honda Accord: 372,789
* Toyota Corolla: 351,007
* Honda Civic: 339,289
* Nissan Altima: 269,668
* Chevy Impala: 265,840
* Dodge Ram: 245,840
* Honda CR-V: 197,279

Nick

Reagonomics, yes good old captitalism really does work. Ronald Reagan defeated the communism by building a strong military that Carter let slide into disarray and disrepair. Socialism/communism has been voted in by the way of ACORN and good old democrat double voting. Stalin once said that he could take our country without a single shot-just give him one generation of our kids. PS. Is this just another media source with a liberal bias or is this site going to end the politics.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim and Tere:
And how many of those "MBA's" worked their way up through the ranks?

HA!

My oldest recently graduated with an MBA from Stanford. Since we have family in the area, and fly free, I got to know his classmates pretty well. Most were born with silver spoons in their mouths, and none had ever worked between high school and college. A fair amount had worked between undergrad and grad school, if that counts toward the "working their way up through the ranks" you mention. A couple had military backgrounds, but no enlisted. I believe I was the only blue-collar person at any of the social events hosted by them, the school or family. In fact, Susan and I were the only ones with mere Bachelor's degrees. The wealth up there in Silicon Valley is mind-boggling. Some of the soirees held on family estates were really something. These people are really something.

Sadly, I think my son, who is really well-grounded, picked up a little Gordon Gekko there. Only time will tell how long it lasts.

GM was pulled from the DJIA 6/1/09, and will be replaced next Monday by Cisco

Reaganomics had three principles that were applied by every Republican President from Reagan onward: 1) Cut the government's income (taxes), 2) Increase the government's expenditures (mainly on foreign military adventures), 3) Borrow to cover the difference.

You can track our national debt relative to our national income from 1940 to present by googling "national debt graph" & following the line, President by President).

At the end of WW II, national debt stood at 117% of national income. From then until 1980, seven Presidents exercised fiscal responsibility & reduced it to about 33%. When Reaganomics took over, it doubled to about 65% under 12 years of Reagan/Bush, then declined to about 57% when much-hated Bill Clinton had several years of budget surpluses. When GWB re-instituted tax cuts without making any expenditure cuts, it shot up again to about 75% at the end of his term.

In actual dollars, national debt went from about $930 billion when Reagan came in, to over $10 trillion when GWB left, an eleven-fold increase.

Reaganomics violates this fundamental rule of economics: "If your outgo exceeds your income, your upkeep will be your downfall." That is what happened to us.

Our debt is rising drastically again, as Obama spends money trying to undo the economic chaos wrought by Reaganomics, & the deification of greed that accompanied it. Can he succeed in recovering us from this disaster? Only time will tell.

Republican ideological beliefs collided with real-world facts, & led to disaster we suffer today. Them's the facts.

I won't get personally involved in this discussion, but here's a pretty good editorial to back up olroy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06...krugman.html?_r=1&em

Great wisdom from the 'Old Man and No Barth'. Thank you. This has nothing to do with politics. It's just common sense. I don't know if what is now being done will fix the problem, but we all should hope and pray that it will. Politicians on both sides of the aisle have ignored some of our very basic problems for a very long time, choosing to listen to special interest groups instead. Hopefully, men and women of all walks will do what is necessary and we will all support them. But it will hurt.

Amen....."The Old Man and No Barth" is a wise man. Reganomics sure did set the country back, and Jim is right, we all need to pray that things begin to change REAL sooooon. I sure hope that President Obama can do what he thinks he can, one thing that's certain, the rest of America is now awake to this crisis. Let's all keep our fingers crossed that this mess goes away. Gives new meaning to the words "The land of the free, and the Home of the BRAVE".

quote:

Originally posted by T&T&B:
"The land of the free, and the Home of the BRAVE".

Let me fix that for you...

"The land of the INDEBTED, and the Home of the BRAVE".

As you can all tell by now, I enjoy working with numbers. Part of this is also because I think large numbers are thrown around by the politicians and experts without any explanation of how it relates to every day people and every day life. That's why I try to put a number into a perspective that we can all understand. We also have the problem that it is hard to explain the long term effect that compounding interest and adding debt on top of debt does over a long period of time.

Do any of you remember this exercise from somewhere in your school days past. Start with one penny ($.01) and double it every day for a thirty day month. How much is the amount on the 30th day? How much does the amount for each of the thirty days total? The Answers: The amount for the 30th day is $5,368,709.12 and the total for the 30 day period is $8,053,063.68. Pretty staggering numbers when you think that you only started with one penny.

Now start in 2009 with a national debt that is close to $11 trillion dollars and start adding $2 trillion this year and more in each of the following years. How many years in the future is the debt unmanageable and it is not even possible to pay the interest on the debt. These are the numbers that No politician will talk about.

Another problem is our concept of thinking about dollars as money. This might seem like an over simplification but think of dollars as just a means of exchanging one thing of value for another thing of value. Let''s say your labor has value and in 1959 it was valued at about $3.00 per hour. Let's also say a 1959 Ford had a value of about $3,000.00. Using dollars you could exchange 1000 hours of your labor for that new Ford. Now fast forward 50 years and let's say your labor is now worth $20.00 per hour but that new 2009 Ford has a value of $30,000. Now you have to work 1500 hours to buy that new Ford. Well, We have a real problem thinking like that. Our main concern is how much is it each month. How did the auto companies and finance companies hide that extra 500 hours you had to work for that car from you. They simply stretched out the payments. In 1959 the average car loan was for 24 month with some at 36 months. In 2009 the average car loan is 60 months with some up to 84 months. Even worse is the leasing programs that keep you from ever building any equity in your purchase.

And yes this car purchase example applies to everything you purchase. Be it homes or loaves of bread- how long do you have to work to pay for it.

The other primary example of us living over our heads is the good old plastic money. Did you realize that in 1959 only American Express existed and it had to be paid in full every month. Visa, Mastercard, and Discover had not even come into existence. Now the average outstanding balance is approaching $10,000.00 per household.

Nick

quote:

Originally posted by olroy:

fundamental rule of economics: "If your outgo exceeds your income, your upkeep will be your downfall."

I can remember when the term "Deficit Spending" had some currency.

Senator Byron Dorgan has written a couple of very good books germane to this issue.

Reckless!: How Debt, Deregulation, and Dark Money Nearly Bankrupted America

and

Take This Job and Ship It: How Corporate Greed and Brain-Dead Politics Are Selling Out America

Each title speaks volumes.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Cagle:
This might seem like an over simplification but think of dollars as just a means of exchanging one thing of value for another thing of value. Let''s say your labor has value and in 1959 it was valued at about $3.00 per hour. Let's also say a 1959 Ford had a value of about $3,000.00. Using dollars you could exchange 1000 hours of your labor for that new Ford. Now fast forward 50 years and let's say your labor is now worth $20.00 per hour but that new 2009 Ford has a value of $30,000. Now you have to work 1500 hours to buy that new Ford.
Nick

You hit the nail on the head, there. In my work and on vacation, I traveled internationally a lot, or taught foreign nationals here, and always made a point of comparing my lot with similar people from other countries. The price of a car is one of the main constants I used.

quote:

The other primary example of us living over our heads is the good old plastic money. Did you realize that in 1959 only American Express existed and it had to be paid in full every month. Visa, Mastercard, and Discover had not even come into existence. Now the average outstanding balance is approaching $10,000.00 per household.

Almost. Sears, in 1970, was the largest creditor, with its "revolving credit" card.