Is anyone else PO'd that we've done nothing to help the people of Libya get rid of this lunatic? Where in the hell have all the leaders gone in this world? Where are the Churchills, the Roosevelts, The Lincolns, the Washingtons? Leadership involves taking risks and we seem to have nothing but people who are just protecting their posteriors.
Jim

Anything the U.S. does unilaterally to get rid of the "lunatic," will necessarily constitute an act of war. We already have two costly wars (in human, financial, & material terms) going on now. Those wars are unpaid for, America is broke, & we've used our soldiers unconscionably. By now many have served five or more tours in Iraq or Afghanistan.

We're not giving our returning soldiers the help they need to get over the stress of repeated combat tours, as evidenced by the incidence of divorces & suicides among them. I'm more ashamed of the way we have treated these, our own people, than I am of our inaction with regard to Libya.

The events in Libya are a human tragedy, but they're having a family fight, & it's not our family. I'm not ready to interfere unilaterally because it means going to war with a third middle-eastern, Muslim country before we've finished with the last two. And who knows what kind of a government will arise to replace the lunatic?

If NATO or the UN decide to do something, I'll agree to go along, but I want someone else to bear the brunt of the battle, not America as we did in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan.

Our soldiers are weary, & our nation is broke. We can no longer afford to be the world's policeman, nor can we save every foreign citizen murdered by a home-grown despot.

I'm glad we have a President who is thinking this through, & seeking an international solution, not shooting from the hip like his predecessor. Of course, any American who has enough real sympathy for the Libyan people to do so, is free to pack up his rifle, kiss his family goodbye, & fly over there to fight with the rebels.

dont think we need to piss on anymore muslims ! anything other than humantarian would be bad!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim and Tere:
Is anyone else PO'd that we've done nothing to help the people of Libya get rid of this lunatic? Where in the hell have all the leaders gone in this world? Where are the Churchills, the Roosevelts, The Lincolns, the Washingtons? Leadership involves taking risks and we seem to have nothing but people who are just protecting their posteriors.
Jim

War is usually politicians sending someone else's son over to fight. Having darn near lost one son in both Iraq and Afghanistan, I am a little hesitant to send the other (uninjured) one to "save" another one of those countries.

The UN thing usually results in us footing the bill, but it gives us political cover, and helps us support the other countries who send men over there. UN activities are usually men in blue helmets being ineffective or being targets.

There are 192 nation members of the UN. Couldn't somebody else do the heavy lifting for a change?

It's not just getting rid of Gadhafi, it's bearing the burden of being seen as strong-arm bullies ourselves for trying to help.

I was having dinner in France a number of years ago and struck up a conversation with a Frenchman who spoke English. At some point I asked him what most French people really think of Americans. He paused thoughtfully and then said "We love you for freeing us from the Germans, and we hate you for freeing us from the Germans."

I've pondered on that response over the years. I think it is human nature to resent those that help you when you cannot. It is like pointing out your weaknesses inabilities. We would not be seen by most of the world as heros and many Libyans and most Arabs will just hate/fear us more. It's a sad quandary.

I can't help but agree with all of the comments. It just tears your heart out to see these people trying to get rid of the despot and getting slaughtered in the process. Certainly there's something we could do short of sending troops in that would help.
Jim

I think that Roy said it very well. I believe that we are way too quick to stick our noses in other peoples business, and once we do, it is way too hard to get uninvolved. Korea? been there for 60 years. Vietnam? 10 years, actually more like 15. I was part of that one, so have first hand experience. Middle East? off and on, mostly on, for the last 20 years. I believe we would be much better off to let other countries solve their own political problems and not involve our troops. I doubt that we would want them involved in our problems although it has happened in the past. Now humanitarian aid such as food and medicine i have no problem with, right now Japan and New Zealand are good examples of that. But no troops or arms.

Jim… Your heart-felt sympathy and compassion for the people of Libya I believe is shared by most Americans. It is one of the virtues that has made us the greatest nation the world has ever seen. However, we cannot continue to be the world’s police force. Currently we have over 360,000 military personnel in over 150 countries. Much has been said of China’s growing economic strength, as we have been bogged down in a decade plus of war at a cost of 2 billion dollars a week, China has been investing their country’s wealth on alternative energy, education and infrastructure. The amount of military personnel China has outside of China?…. none, zero!
Our brave young men and women in the military have done everything that has been asked of them, as always. I believe it’s time to bring them home.

Well, in my opinion the United States was the "greatest country in the world" but that status is rapidly evaporating. In 1960, ten per-cent of Americans were on some form of social assistance, now it is over thirty per-cent. Almost fifty per-cent of Americans are on food stamps.

Take a look at your politicians. The first thing Obama did when he fluked into control of the Oval Office was to get rid of the bust of Winston Churchill given by the British people to the American people following the disaster of 9/11. Obama didn't have the jam to relegate that gift to the bowls of the White House. No, he exhibited his bad manners and ideologue leftest makeup by sending back that symbolic gift to the British Embassy in Washington thus infuriating America's closest ally, demeaning his office and embarrassing the United States.

America won't return to greatness until you get a President who understands something about decent manners and finance and get much better people running things.

I agree that America can't sustain it's present role in the world. If it weren't for the United States, Canada wouldn't be Canada, all those European social democracies wouldn't be what they are because the US has borne the overwhelming burden of their defense while these nations have spent freely on social programs. It's about time that these nations contributed their fair share because if the US continues on it's present course, it will be bankrupt just like many of your major cities and states.

Roger34, a concerned friend who loves his neighboring country.

When I become President can you arrange a trade of our White House, Senate and House office buildings for your
Parliment Buildings?

Again, can't help but agree with all the comments. But, Ronald Reagan bombed Gadaffi's compound in 1987, losing one aircraft and two pilots. The Libyan sponsored terrorist attacks didn't stop and the UN condemned the action. All for what?
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Shadow man:
I believe we would be much better off to let other countries solve their own political problems and not involve our troops.

This begs the questions:

Which countries deserve our help?


Which countries CAN be helped? Forcing a regime change is not necessarily an improvement. It can actually destabilize a whole region.

And, then, there are situations where the results are mixed. We certainly did help Kuwait. Did we help Iraq? What about the rest of the Middle East? What about the terrorism that seems to be a result? We have been helping Israel since its inception in the late '40s, but at what cost?

Looking at history, both recent and past, will yield different answers for different situations. We can learn from history, but there is no one size fits all answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Moonbeam-Express:
There are 192 nation members of the UN. Couldn't somebody else do the heavy lifting for a change?

A number of countries profit greatly from the funds we give them for their UN activity. This is by design. It is a significant part of their budget.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger34:
Almost fifty per-cent of Americans are on food stamps.

Take a look at your politicians. The first thing Obama did when he fluked into control of the Oval Office was to get rid of the bust of Winston Churchill given by the British people to the American people following the disaster of 9/11. Obama didn't have the jam to relegate that gift to the bowls of the White House. No, he exhibited his bad manners and ideologue leftest makeup by sending back that symbolic gift to the British Embassy in Washington thus infuriating America's closest ally, demeaning his office and embarrassing the United States.

A British Embassy spokesman said: "The bust of Sir Winston Churchill by Sir Jacob Epstein was uniquely lent to a foreign head of state, President George W Bush, from the Government Art Collection in the wake of 9/11 as a signal of the strong transatlantic relationship.
"It was lent for the first term of office of President Bush. When the President was elected for his second and final term, the loan was extended until January 2009.
"The new President has decided not to continue this loan and the bust has now been returned. It is on display at the Ambassador's Residence."
Likewise, the White House has stated that the Churchill bust had been scheduled for return to Great Britain prior to Obama's presidency:
Some Britons took offense when Winston Churchill's bust was replaced with a bust of Abraham Lincoln. But the decision to return the Churchill bust to the British - it had been presented by former Prime Minister Tony Blair to Bush on loan - had been made before Obama even arrived.

"It was already scheduled to go back," [White House curator William] Allman said

quote:

Originally posted by Roger34:
Almost fifty per-cent of Americans are on food stamps:

Food stamp usage 1 in 8 approx 12.5% http://www.reuters.com/article...dUSTRE6465E220100507

"Facts are stubborn things" - Ronald Reagan

quote:

Well, in my opinion the United States was the "greatest country in the world" but that status is rapidly evaporating. In 1960, ten per-cent of Americans were on some form of social assistance, now it is over thirty per-cent. Almost fifty per-cent of Americans are on food stamps.


America won't return to greatness until you get a President who understands something about decent manners and finance and get much better people running things.

Roger,

I'm not sure where you got your figures from, but this is the Wiki answer on social welfare:
"The strictest sense of the term though would be those getting income directly from the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services which is about 8% of the total population that receives some form of assistance and 1.7% that receive most of their income (50% or more) from these programs."

If you make Welfare "some form of social assistance" then wouldn't that mean countries like Canada and the UK have nearly 100% with your social medicine and other generous social programs?

As for us once being the greatest nation, I'm personally hoping we lose that status for good. I would rather be a part of the greatest nation group that "together" work as a team to keep the world straight.

Finally, a President, even a two term President, cannot affect policy change in this country without tremendous collaboration of the majority of Congress. This is not a dictatorship. We're in this mess financially and reputationally (made that word up) due to many poor decisions over a long period of time from both parties and with help from many of our friends near and far. We have all been complacent and short sighted, but the world is an ever more complex place and we will always make errors if we do anything at all.

Let's admit that we got into this state together, there is much work to be done, and we need to focus on getting it right or the good guys will decline.