This is most definitely not a Barth-related post, nor a comment on the quality of the writing on this site, but as one of my favourite internet haunts I feel obligated to post this here. Hence the reason I've thrown it into the 'Misc' section.

I'm one who wades through academic and technical writing for a living, and I'm often appalled by the poor grasp of English most writers have. I ran across this old essay by George Orwell (written in 1946) that still contains valuable lessons. The MTV generation will probably consider this far too dense a read, but if you still hold any sway over your kids or grandkids--whether they are finishing high school, in University, or elsewhere--please urge them to read it. Students, for some reason, seem to view college as a means to technical learning, and often forget to pick up the very basics while they are there. The ability to put one's thoughts down on paper in a way that both engages the reader and get the point across clearly is becoming a rare skill these days.

I say this only because I've had a number of opportunities to mark and edit the writing of University students and Professors alike, and I'm horrified as to what passes as English text. This, of course, is not a comment on Barthmobile; compared to other forums I've frequented, this one is upper-class!

http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit


EDIT: Here's a "Cole's Notes" version of the essay: http://www.pickthebrain.com/blog/george-orwells-5-rules-for-effective-writing/

I will take issue with some of that. I have proofread, with good feedback, all my sons' papers, college aps, etc through UCLA, USNA, U VA, SAIS, Naval Postgraduate School and now Stanford GSB.

The piece is good reading, but I would not follow it too closely for either academic or non-academic writing. He simplifies almost to "dumbing-down".

As an example, lots of teachers like foreign phrases, particularly in italics. Although English-impaired, I am able to make a fool of myself in several languages. I still like to use a foreign word or phrase now and then. Weltschmerz, for example. Nothing in English can do that so succinctly. And joie de vivre rolls off the tongue (or pen) far better than its English equivalent. Angst, for example has recently crept into our lexicon, albeit a little incorrectly. And then zeitgeist.

Long words are fun, sometimes. Plus, one should avoid using the same word too often.

I would also quibble on his "if it is possible, to cut a word out, always cut it out". Heck, I don't even like to end a sentence with out.

Did I say, I love adjectives?

My God, how would Poe, Churchill or William Buckley read if they did that? Or Alexander Pope, for that matter. I realize those are great writers and thinkers, and we are neither, but we can learn from them.

But, yes, Poe overused "singular".

I would, however, follow the piece closely in technical writing. One of my careers was in that area, and I would definitely have that handy and circulate it.

On edit: Good Grief! On reading the link cited in your edit, it would appear that his ideal literature could be Dick, Jane and Sally.

Notice I managed to get almost all the way through this without writing au contraire!.

Ah heck, let's talk about cars or guns or dogs.

A fair assessment, bill h, and I agree that applying this in an academic setting may not be well received. The only solution is, of course, to make professors read it first!

I've been involved in a few courses over my student career, on both sides of the marking divide, and I certainly recognize that there are some good writers in academia. Unfortunately, when marking 300 undergraduate papers, they end up being the exception rather than the rule. I guess it depends on the academic program. English students can usually structure papers well, but hide the message behind a curtain of "ten dollar" words. Business and Science students, on the contrary, will use accessible language but structure their essays so poorly that whatever message they are attempting to pass is impossible to decipher.

The unfortunate aspect of this discussion, from my limited perspective, is the focus in University or College to get a degree, and not to prepare for life after academia. In other words, after four (or six or eight) years of sprinkling your writing with foreign phrases, metaphors, and adjectives, how are some of these students going to write a memo to the new boss asking to fix the kitchen coffee-maker?

quote:

"Dear sir,

As you may be full aware, there exists an insurmountable predicament with regards to the latte dispensing contrivance within the cuisine. At times within the preceding fort-night, nefarious forces have conspired against the tired rabble within the confines of this establishment to prevent the acquisition a favored beverage. Time permitting, could you please inquire as to an effective substitution that would allow our laissez-faire consumption to continue unabated?"

Or something like that.

Kidding aside, I appreciate your reference to some of the great writers. Although I don't have it handy, it reminded me of a Churchill example where he butchered a sentence in order to fit it within proper English requirements. That man was an English genius.

EDIT #2: Google refreshed my Churchill memory: "Mr. Churchill," he was told, "one should never end one's sentence with a preposition!" "Madam," he replied, "that is a rule up with which I shall not put."

I enjoyed your response, Bill. Thanks!

EDIT: After reading your edit, I truly laughed out loud. The new generation, of which I am a part, really does think in those terms. In my research I've had the chance to read academic texts written in the 40's and 50's, and I am often impressed. It appears that a lowly undergraduate in the 50's or 60's would be able to produce literature that far exceeds the level commonly accepted in peer-reviewed journals today. From my perspective, I was not even permitted to mark students down for poor grammar or even spelling(!) as it "was not an English course".

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:
I will take issue with some of that. I have proofread, with good feedback, all my sons' papers, college aps, etc through UCLA, USNA, U VA, SAIS, Naval Postgraduate School and now Stanford GSB.

Ah heck, let's talk about cars or guns or dogs.

Do you REALLY want me to talk (and talk and talk) about my dogs?

What year did your son graduate from USNA? I'm Class of 1964...

Or, in southern terms,
Where'd you go to school at?
I went to school where we learned not to end sentences in prepositions.
OK, where'd you go to school at ***hole?

"But, yes, Poe overused "singular"."

Poe is excused; he enjoys poetic license.

"Angst, for example has recently crept into our lexicon, albeit a little incorrectly. And then zeitgeist."

Memory tells me I (horrors!) used foreign phrases -in italics! - in more than one recent post. Snob Rudeberg's post is giving me a lotta angst along with pallida Mors.

Rube Goldberg device: "accomplishing by extremely complex roundabout means what actually or seemingly could be done simply."

By definition I am incapable of a simple response when a far more complex answer is possible. And a little angst'll keep ya sharp, Gunner.

Let me backpedal as fast as possible (while lobbing frosty beers at my pursuers) by saying that they weren't directed toward this board and, in any event, I am guilty of every one of those infractions. Today. Likely within this post.

I Googled Winston's quotes because I remembered his statement on prepositions differently. One source found at least nine iterations of that statement. My favorite is the one I remembered, "That is the kind of arrant pedantry, up with which I will not put." Somehow sounds more Churchillian than the others.

Speaking of pedantry, Mr. Orwell is a bit pedantic himself. I got bored with his circumlocutions and scrolled down to the bottom. He could have saved us all time had he simply given us his six rules.

Of course, I'm a poor one to criticize. About me it has been said, "You ask him the time, & he tells you how to build a watch." On another occasion, "He can express a sentence in two paragraphs at any time." But the best (worst?) example was a graduate school prof who reviewed one of my papars. I beamed when he smiled, and said, "Mr. Wilson, your essay is truly a literary tour de force," then he concluded, "akin to chasing moonbeams, or goosing butterflies on the wing."

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:


Do you REALLY want me to talk (and talk and talk) about my dogs?

Sure, why not start a pet thread? I reserve the right to speed read through some of it, but a picture is worth a thousand words.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty: What year did your son graduate from USNA? I'm Class of 1964...

He is class of 1995.

quote:

Originally posted by Noob Goldberg:
Although I don't have it handy, it reminded me of a Churchill example where he butchered a sentence in order to fit it within proper English requirements. That man was an English genius.

EDIT #2: Google refreshed my Churchill memory: "Mr. Churchill," he was told, "one should never end one's sentence with a preposition!" "Madam," he replied, "that is a rule up with which I shall not put."

I don't have it handy. I have it memorized. The rule is: "Never use a preposition to end a sentence with".

I believe Churchill's response was "This is the kind of errant pedantry up with which I shall not put” I am not correcting you on the quote to be correcting you, but to use it as an example of why I like his choice of words more than I would have like Orwell's editing of that quote.

You and I seem to share the same admiration of Churchill's way with words, I believe. How can one admire Churchill's writing yet embrace Orwell's dictums?

Fie!

quote:

"Dear sir,

As you may be full aware, there exists an insurmountable predicament with regards to the latte dispensing contrivance within the cuisine. At times within the preceding fort-night, nefarious forces have conspired against the tired rabble within the confines of this establishment to prevent the acquisition a favored beverage. Time permitting, could you please inquire as to an effective substitution that would allow our laissez-faire consumption to continue unabated?"

That was GREAT!


BTW, Susan just used a German word. It gave her statement more emphasis.

Another man handy with the English language was John L. Lewis, late head of the United Mine Workers Union. He spoke like an Old Testament Prophet. Once, while FDR was President of the U.S., the UMW & the mine owners were in conflict. In frustration, Roosevelt spouted, "A pox on both their houses." John L. rose, and rumbled, "It ill-behooves one who has slept in Labor's house, who has supped at Labor's table, to damn with equal and impartial fervor, Labor and it's adversaries when they are locked in mortal embrace."

Lady Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I should make you a cup of poison!"

Churchill: "And if I were your husband, I would drink it."

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:

I believe Churchill's response was "This is the kind of errant pedantry up with which I shall not put” I am not correcting you on the quote to be correcting you, but to use it as an example of why I like his choice of words more than I would have like Orwell's editing of that quote.

Your (and olroy's) memory of that quote is far closer to what I remember reading than the one I posted. Thanks for clarifying!

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:

You and I seem to share the same admiration of Churchill's way with words, I believe. How can one admire Churchill's writing yet embrace Orwell's dictums?

Fie!

I plead circumstances! When I first read the Orwell list it instantly reminded me of an editor I had when I was taking some journalism classes. He was a stickler for word count, brevity, and salience, and I think he would have approved of that list. Common practice after I submitted a draft would be for him to circle--in bright red--every single instance where the word "of" appeared. In his mind, 'of' was filler for the lazy, and could almost always be replaced by a rearrangement of the sentence sentence rearrangement. This may seem overly pedantic, but it really forced a young student to examine every sentence for focus. I certainly relax that standard now, but I still feel slightly guilty every time I type 'of'.

In all honesty, I'm not experienced or educated enough to differentiate between different writers, and I have a long way to go before I could hope to acquire an English language mastery. One reason for this is that writing styles change depending on the medium being written toward, and I've had the opportunity to a tiny bit each for news, magazines, public relations, television, and academia. Each one is completely different in what the audience expects, structure, and what you can and can't get away with when trying to get a message across. I'll never become a novelist or a poet; My only hope is to gain a general comfort with writing, in the same way I'd develop oratorical, mathematical, mechanical, managerial, financial, interpersonal, or any similar skill. So perhaps some of you on this board could provide me with some fuel for that quest. What books did you read that really helped you understand our English language better, or an author with an absolute mastery of the written word? I'm always eager to learn something new!

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:

quote:

"Dear sir,

As you may be full aware, there exists an insurmountable predicament with regards to the latte dispensing contrivance within the cuisine. At times within the preceding fort-night, nefarious forces have conspired against the tired rabble within the confines of this establishment to prevent the acquisition a favored beverage. Time permitting, could you please inquire as to an effective substitution that would allow our laissez-faire consumption to continue unabated?"

That was GREAT!

Actually, it was a simple cut and paste from my last memo :P

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:

BTW, Susan just used a German word. It gave her statement more emphasis.

I often use French words, although my wife tells me most of what I say untranslatable, especially when frustrated. Actually, she's partly responsible for that 'snobbish' anti-student rant a little earlier. One night she asked (much to her later regret) if I needed any help marking papers. She's the best proofreader I've ever had, although I've had to develop a pretty tough skin as my work is hemorrhaging red ink when she hands it back.

After the first hundred or so four page essays, I really didn't care about the papers' composition. She actually began reading these essays, and began pointing out how little apparent effort had gone into these papers. This was like a veteran welder forgetting to attach the ground--every single time he went to draw a bead. Or a coach mechanic climbing underneath an air-ride bus without ever jacking up the frame. After doing this task many times in a row, you'd hope they would know better! She wanted me to fail the lot of them--thank goodness she's not a teacher--but we lowly markers were only permitted to mark down a max of 5% for 'structure, spelling, and grammar'. It didn't irritate me that it was poorly written; it irritated me that there was no pride in workmanship.

It must be noted that neither of us are English majors, or even all that well cultured. Our idea of a fun night out is a bottle of cheap wine and a deck of cards. We've nicknamed our unborn child 'Cletus the Fetus'. We both have economics backgrounds, a discipline not usually noted for stellar achievements with the written word. The way we figured it, if we were able to notice these errors, an unsuspecting English teacher would probably be huddled in the corner rocking in the fetal position.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Lady Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I should make you a cup of poison!"

Churchill: "And if I were your husband, I would drink it."

And this old classic:

"You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk."

"Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober."

A couple of classics:

The Elements of Style, Strunk and White

Fowler's Modern English Usage

These are great and widely applauded works in the field - some might say dated, but can age wither or custom..........?

And, of course, Kate Turabian.