Has anyone ever tried to update seatbelts in a Barth? Is it possible to get a 3 point belt in the front seats? Also, has anyone added belts in the couch area or to the seats in the dinning area? Thanks.

Hi and Welcome to Barthmobile.com. We have talked for years about adding shoulder belts. We checked with a bus convertor her in Minneapolis and he said it was easy to do because of the big aluminum studs in the Barth. We were waiting to get new chairs but that was along time ago and still new chairs. I have nighmares about flying through that big windshield.

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Shortcuts Always Take Longer

Rather than drill into the wall, examine the possiblity of buying a seat from a late model Chevy Pickup.

The pickups from the late '90s have a seat with a shoulder belt built in.

We put belts from a Ford Aerostar in the front seats of our 73 Barth. My husband had to make tall aluminum posts to add length to the belts but I feel so much safer with the newer belts.

In the last years of Barth, did they install three point belts? It might be helpful to know how they did it and what product was used.

Can anyone help with this? Once this upgrade is workde out, it should benefit all barth owners.

Bill G

I am in the process of tackling this very issue. There are several trucks that sell now with front seats that have integral three point harnesses.

I have a set from a Sebring convertible, and am working out the fabrication for adapting them to the Barth pedestals.

It has been put on the back burner for now, but I will take pictures as I go.

This all sounds like front driver/passenger seat belts. Has anyone put seat belts anywhere else in their Barth?? I'm thinking about times we might want to take "passengers" with us. Especially wee children who are required to be in car seats! Where would you put them in a 1987 Barth?

My previous s.o.b. & an earler van conversion both had seat belts in the dinette, anchored to the floor, and run up between the seat and back.

J.C. Whitney sells 3 varieties of lap/shoulder belt combinations, but all appear to require a mount above the shoulder.

I have drawings of the framework in my Barth, and I recall that somewhere behind the seats, is a double stud. Next time I go there (if I remember) I'll have to see if it would be a place to mount a shoulder belt.

Gut level engineering suggests it would be unwise to install an integral seat and belt combo on the typical RV swivel seat pedestal. All the energy of a flying body would be transfered to the narrow base of the pedestal, not to the frame of the rig. The problem could be solved, but would probably require as much, or more hassle, than installing a standard lap/shoulder belt combo.

But that's the voice of speculation, not the voice of experience.

[This message has been edited by olroy (edited September 27, 2004).]

My previous s.o.b. & an earler van conversion both had seat belts in the dinette, anchored to the floor, and run up between the seat and back.

J.C. Whitney sells 3 varieties of lap/shoulder belt combinations, but all appear to require a mount above the shoulder.

I have drawings of the framework in my Barth, and I recall that somewhere behind the seats, is a double stud. Next time i go there (if I remember) I'll have to see if it would be a place to mount a shoulder belt.

Gut level engineering suggests it would be unwise to install an integral seat and belt combo on the typical RV swivel seat pedestal. All the energy of a flying body would be transfered to the narrow base of the pedestal, not to the frame of the rig. The problem could be solved, but would probably require as much, or more hassle, than installing a standard lap/shoulder belt combo.

But that's the voice of speculation, not the voice of experience.

Isn't one of the prime reasons for the shoulder harness to keep the upper body & head from pitching forward and hitting the windshield in the conventional auto? A lap belt keeps you from being pitched out. With the windshield so far forward on our Barths it would be nearly impossible to hit the glass if your lap belt was secured.

3-point belts do so much more than preventing one from hitting the windshield. The DUMMIES in the TV ads have shown how much more protection they provide. If there is any way, and I am sure there is, one should install a 3-point system. OH HOW I REMEMBER SOME SAYING, I CAN HANG ONTO THE STEERING WHEEL, wrong, and if you could your arms would take the beating of a life time. People have come out of lap belts time and time again. SMART thing to do Bill G. Any brackets or supports that you add should spread the load, and not just a bolt and a small washer. BIG WASHER OR PLATE, and I would think the pull should be level with your shoulder as much as possible. I will be watching this topic so as to learn myself.



[This message has been edited by bill h (edited September 27, 2004).]

Hi, Dale. You're right on that. I have a good friend who "ate" a steering wheel in a minor collision with only lap belt connected. 30 years later, he still has serious TMJ and dental problems. And my wife is way too pretty to even hit the dash with her face.

If a solid aluminum block, say 6 inches high, is used as a spacer between the two flanges, a large washer or plate would not be necessary. The block could even pick up a rivet hole or two, with the rivets replaced with a bolt into tapped threads in the block. A washer or plate would only be needed to prevent bolt pull-through. I will probably use Grade 8 or 9 bolts and paint the heads to match. Unbrakos are nice. I would like to use stainless, but have to do some research on strength. ARP makes some stainless hardware which might be good on the outside. They claim 170,000 psi.

http://www.arp-bolts.com/media/pdf_files/BF_60-64.pdf

Chrome plating bolts raises hydrogen embrittlement issues.

I have bought the 3 point non-retractable belts from JCW. They are made by Beams Industries Inc., 10519 South Sunnylane Road, Oklahoma City, OK 73160 (405) 793-1901. They are their number CH-300. They came with pretty good installation instructions, which I will send if you wish.

Roy raises an interesting issue on the double post behind the driver. Mine seems not to have that, as evidenced by rivet patterns, at least. The proof will be in removing the interior wall panel. Now, there's a pain. If there is indeed a double post, getting both of them to bear the load without weakening them would be an issue unless the open sides of the channel face each other. The solid block on one channel still looks pretty good. Heck, once I get the interior wall panel off, I may have to re-evaluate the whole thing. BTW, a carbide blade of many teeth on a table saw will cut aluminum if you are very careful. Wear a thick shirt, gloves, and safety glasses.

There is an SAE publication on lap/shoulder harnesses that is way overpriced, but most sources seem to agree that the attach point should line up with your ear or a little behind it. This seems not to be too critical, however, as the NHTSA has approved automobiles with locations all over the place. And, of course, people come in all sizes and adjust seats all over the place. My Jag has the attach point well behind and below my shoulder, for example. But I would expect untoward pressure on my previously-broken left collarbone in the event of a collision. But, it meets European safety standards, which are often more enlightened and rigorous than ours.

Here is a fun link(The text is a bit much, but it has a good diagram):

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rulesregs/fmcsr/regs/571.210.htm

This has been spell-checked, but grammar, syntax, parsing and punctuation errors are retained for your entertainment

Well, to reply to Olroy's concerns about engineering strenghts:

The pedestals for my barth are about 1/8 flange on a 1 foot diameter steel tube. It is bolted through the floor with 4 large bolts; 9/16's if I recall, into the steel frame.

Adding a third point of attachment on the seat itself, rather than the wall adds minimal stress as far as decelleration loads. If you are wearing a lap belt, you can bet that your entire body will still cause lateral g forces under the force of an accident. What changes is the manner in which your body is restrained. Keeping the upper torso restrained along with the lower body prevents hyperflexion of the lumbar spine, which can (in extreme loads) cause paraplegia and disruption of the organs of the belly.

The stock mounts are more than strong enough, and I figure the flex and progressive tightening of an inerial reel three point harness will offset the "infinite" load placed by the non inertial standard lap belt.

Of course, driving a 16k GVWR vehicle does have inertial advantages in traffic unless you are tangling with a tractor trailer. Decelleration trauma is what causes injury. Broaden the curve of decelleration and your likelihood of injury. Remember that speed does not kill....stopping fast does.

In my opinion, replacing the current lap-belt-only seats with higher quality seats that incorporate an integral three point harness is the way to go.

No drilling, no tapping and no breaking through walls. Unless you can get behind the studs of the wall, I can't fathom a way of creating the type of reinforcement that will keep a fastener from simply pulling out of aluminum under the loads of an accident. It would take a rather large plate, riveted across a large area to accomplish this, and without this level of preparation I don't see creating a third attachment point as being secure. There is no way of load testing the creation of new anchorpoints.

I see adding an anchor point on the wall to be too labor intensive to do it 'right'.

I'd rather deal with items that are pre-engineered, and go from there. I can't match the build quality and engineering in a current-model truck seat, with integral belts.

Hey, my .02 and worth every penny...

Windsor, if the seats are well attached to the frame, your way is a good way. If I needed new seats, I would go your way.

I would be interested in how the seats were attached to the frame. Got a picture? Or, maybe a 1000 words?.

"Labor Intensive" is another way of spelling "Hobby" or "Cheap".

Bill's last line is pure poetry.