Bill H,

After reading all the replys on my Jan 25th thread - "Alternator vs. Voltage Regulator - P30/454", and your July 4th archive post trouble-shooting, "Voltage regulator vs. isolator", I finally took my '84 gaser in for diagnosis and repairs. I took her to the place with the best reputation. I also took along your trouble shooting notes.

1. He tested the alternator and determined it bad. He retrofitted a CS144 to replace the bad alternator which had only 10,000 miles on it.

2. Upon testing the new alternator, I could tell that he was not getting the readings he wanted to see and started confering with the head honcho. I took this opportunity to show them your trouble shooting notes regarding testing of the Isolator and they proceeded to test it as you prescribed.

3. After doing the 3 wire isolator test, they determined the isolator was faulty.

4. After further digestion of your notes, they suggested junking the Isolator and going to a continous duty solenoid.

The new CS144 is installed and I'm supposed to take her back in the morning for the soleniod job. Looking over their shoulder, I saw that the meter was indicating 14.6 coming off the alternator at the connected 3 wire isolator location and also at the batteries.

Question: What is your opinion of by-passing the isolator and going to the CD solenoid? What should I look for or what question should I ask to assure these guys are doing the job right?

I know, the question in my mind was did I really have a bad alternator or was it the isolator all along? I had heard some RPM related, high pitch, whining in the doghouse and the alt belt was worn out which means it could have been slipping.

Since the CS144 is already installed, I'll leave it but wanted to get the big picture of the "Isolator vs. CD solenoid" question from you, if possible.

I should add that on the trip back home, the whining had stopped and the meter on the dash was showing 14 to 15 volts charging whereas previously it indicated 11 to 12 volts.

While its in the shop tomorrow, I plan to have them drop the starter and check all connections on the starter solenoid for peace of mind.

Bottom line now is what should I expect with the CD solenoid in lieu of the Isolator?

Many thanks,
Don

FWIW, before Bill H. responds, your whining alternator, worn belt, and low voltage readings mirror my experience before I had the alternator changed.

I'll defer to Bill on the isolater vs. solenoid question. I'm and old shade tree hammer mechanic who's baffled by dancing electrons. If you can't fix it with a different size crescent, or a bigger hammer, I'm lost. (Well, maybe not quite.)

quote:

Originally posted by dogill:
Bill H,

After reading all the replys on my Jan 25th thread - "Alternator vs. Voltage Regulator - P30/454", and your July 4th archive post trouble-shooting, "Voltage regulator vs. isolator", I finally took my '84 gaser in for diagnosis and repairs. I took her to the place with the best reputation. I also took along your trouble shooting notes.

1. He tested the alternator and determined it bad. He retrofitted a CS144 to replace the bad alternator which had only 10,000 miles on it.

2. Upon testing the new alternator, I could tell that he was not getting the readings he wanted to see and started confering with the head honcho. I took this opportunity to show them your trouble shooting notes regarding testing of the Isolator and they proceeded to test it as you prescribed.

3. After doing the 3 wire isolator test, they determined the isolator was faulty.

4. After further digestion of your notes, they suggested junking the Isolator and going to a continous duty solenoid.

The new CS144 is installed and I'm supposed to take her back in the morning for the soleniod job. Looking over their shoulder, I saw that the meter was indicating 14.6 coming off the alternator at the connected 3 wire isolator location and also at the batteries.

Question: What is your opinion of by-passing the isolator and going to the CD solenoid? What should I look for or what question should I ask to assure these guys are doing the job right?

I know, the question in my mind was did I really have a bad alternator or was it the isolator all along? I had heard some RPM related, high pitch, whining in the doghouse and the alt belt was worn out which means it could have been slipping.

Since the CS144 is already installed, I'll leave it but wanted to get the big picture of the "Isolator vs. CD solenoid" question from you, if possible.

I should add that on the trip back home, the whining had stopped and the meter on the dash was showing 14 to 15 volts charging whereas previously it indicated 11 to 12 volts.

While its in the shop tomorrow, I plan to have them drop the starter and check all connections on the starter solenoid for peace of mind.

Bottom line now is what should I expect with the CD solenoid in lieu of the Isolator?

Many thanks,
Don

Don, I'm having alternator envy right now. That CS144 is a good'un.

A silicone diode will have a voltage drop of around .7 volts. That means the isolator drops the voltage that amount to both the coach and chassis batteries. The use of Schottky diodes gets around this, but at greater expense. A solenoid has 0 volts drop.

Sounds like you have a good shop.

Here is an interesting method of battery isolation:
This is using a single pole, double throw, center off momentary-on switch to control the coil of the solenoid. The momentary side of the switch is hooked to the coach battery, the on side is hooked to the ignition, and the third terminal is out to the coil of the solenoid.. This way one solenoid will- in the momentary position-parallel the batteries to allow the coach batteries to help a low chassis battery start the engine, and in the on position connect the alternator to the house battery when the ignition is on). The momentary position is for emergency start when the chassis batteries are low, the on position is dual for charging the coach batteries when driving, and the middle is off for when you don’t want to charge while driving. I like to start with the switch in the middle position, then switch to the dual position after everything is settled down. But with solar, I often don’t use the alternator to charge the coach batteries at all unless we are running the fridge on 12 volts while driving.



While they have the starter down, replace the solenoid with the high heat one, GM 1114458. Exhaust heat can take its toll on the Bakelite terminal housing. Also make sure they use a Belleville spring nut on the small starting terminal. Nut is Delco 2030900 and flat washer 131015. Torque to 12 to 17 in lbs. The start terminal is long and grows when it gets hot, loosening the connection. That is why chevvies are notorious for not starting when hot, but OK when cooler. A heat shield is a good idea, tool. So is a direct ground cable from batter to a starter mounting bolt. Be sure the starter mounting bolts are the shouldered GM bolts, not hardware store bolts, which can allow the starter to misalign and bite you later.

Be sure that the threads and nuts match on the large terminals. Some solenoids have metric threads, which will accept US nuts, but not a good fit.

Maybe pull the end cap and inspect brush length.



[This message has been edited by bill h (edited March 02, 2005).]

Bill,

The Technician did tell me that the continuous solenoid would have a wire going to ignition but didn't mention anything about a switching option. I got the impression that with what they plan to do, both house batteries and the chassis battery will be receiving charge when the motor is running? Sounds to my untrained ears, I'll have no battery isolation using their continous solenoid approach.

The guy doing the work owns an older class A, himself, so I lean toward trusting his judgement. He said that most of the late model coachs had abandoned the isolator concept, Is this true? Or, can one's house batteries be overcharged using this CD solenoid fix?

Your pointers on the starter solenoid are well taken. My Barth has been hard to start when hot and even sometimes wanted to or did die in traffic while waiting for a redlight after a long Interstate run.

I mentioned the heat shield installation yesterday and the Technician said that my starter should not be getting overheated since I have the new Torley headers. Is this true or should I insist on the heat shield? I have read on this forum that some mechanics don't like heat shields because they are a pain to install?

Thanks for your help and I see you are an early riser too.

Don

Bill,
I once had a Le Sharo Diesel that came from the factory with the switch you describe. I loved the switch, it beat the heck out of the automatic systems.

Want me to tackle the starter issue?

New CS144 Alternator and replaced Isolator with a continous duty solenoid. While I was at it, had the original factory starter rebuilt and added new solenoid. Every- thing seems to be hunky-dorie and running smooth. Tried to install a factory heat shield but not enough room. The old starter solenoid was not completely cooked but peace of mind is priceless. Surprizing good news, the CS144 cost little more than the original 12si.

WHAT NEXT? Lube Job!

Which motor oil do you fellow 454 gassers use in these notoriously hot running engines? What about the new Mobil synthethic, as advertized on NASCAR, for hardworking, hot running engines? Best oil filter?

Don
1984 Barthalamew 28

Don, I ran Exxon 10w30 last change and I noticed a distinct drop in pressure after a lot of highway miles. It always came back after a little rest-10 minutes or so-, but I think there is something out there better. Synthetics might be OK but I have a lot of knowledgable guys tell me they are for new engines, not our 100g+ 454s. Next change I'll use one of the high milage higher vis oils and see how that works after pushing her hard for a couple hundred miles.

------------------
Dan & Suzy Z
'81 Euro 28

Don, I suspect the solenoid your shop is putting in will just parallel the batteries when it is energized by the ignition switch. Your batteries will be isolated when the ignition is off. There should be no overcharging.

I disagree on the heat shield. There is one on the market that is just a blanket that installs with metal tie straps.

One other thing on starters: Let the engine idle for a while before shutting down. That will prevent, or at least mitigate, the dreaded heat soak. I installed a puller electric fan and a thermostatic switch. When I shut the engine off, the fan kicks in and runs for several minutes to purge all the heat from the engine area. Gotta be good for starters and wires.

No, I am not an early riser (except for Mondays). I work till 2330 and surf before bed.

quote:

Originally posted by AF retiree:
Bill,

Want me to tackle the starter issue?

Sure. Go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by dogill:

Which motor oil do you fellow 454 gassers use in these notoriously hot running engines? What about the new Mobil synthetic, as advertised on NASCAR, for hardworking, hot running engines? Best oil filter?

Don
1984 Barthalamew 28

Don, oil choice is a subject fraught with much disagreement. I have use Mobil 1 for years and am very happy. It works in old engines, too. I work with a fellow with over 300,000 miles on his work beater. He commutes 40 miles each way, and is a Mobil 1 user.

My choice in Chevy oil filters is the AC P35L. I use the Mobil 1 filters on my non-Chevy vehicles.

Here is a good site on oil filters:

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

Here is some info lifted from several sites on the AC filter:


25013454 Synthetic Oil Filter
The AC PF-35L heavy-duty spin-on oil filter can replace any PF-25 or PF-35 filter on 1968 up Chevrolet V8 engines. It has a 100% synthetic element that is rated at 12 microns. Its synthetic glass filter media provides finer filtration than conventional cellulose (paper) filters. The individual strands of synthetic glass used in the PF35L are smaller and more consistent in size than cellulose fibers. These glass fibers are supported by a polyester sheet laminated on both sides, and the pleated synthetic filter element is backed by a metal screen. This extremely efficient filter can reduce engine wear by 75% compared to conventional filters without restricting the flow of oil.


This is the same diameter oil filter as the PF25 (standard 350 ci engine) filter, except it is longer. The standard one filters down to 30 microns, which means any particles 29 microns or smaller will continue to circulate. The PF35L has synthetic filter element which filters down to 12 microns which means 11 microns or smaller is the circulating chunk size. Because the filter is larger, it requires almost an extra 1/2 quart of oil to be added to crankcase. This longer filter fits and aligns flush with oil pan on 305 and 350 cubic inch engines in the the 3rd and 4th generation F-bodies, so there's little risk of having it bottom out on bumps. But BEWARE if you have a 1995 model with an oil cooler housing since GM redesigned the '95 cooler which causes the PF35L to hang slightly below the oil pan thereby taking the risk that it may hit the ground on bumps and dips. No 1996 or later models got a cooler so there should be no problem there. Quote from Hot Rod: > > "FILTER TIP" > > "Chevy's new V8 heavy-duty "race" oil filter (GM 25013454 or AC PF-35L) can replace any PF-25 or PF-35 filter. Its 100-percent synthetic element is rated at 12 microns and is so efficient that engine wear is reduced by 75-percent in comparison to conventional filters-all without restricting oil flow. > (Courtesy Cone Chevrolet.)"


Terry Quinn (tquinn@heartland.bradley.edu) wrote:
"The following information is not specific to the PF35L, but I'm hoping that it applies. A few years ago, we were working with a filter manufacturer that was promoting synthetic (glass fiber) powertrain oil filters. They had extensive data on the difference between that type of filter and a conventional paper filter. While the synthetic filter is rated for smaller particle collection, that is not the only significant advantage. When filters are rated, they frequently do a so-called "multi-pass" test. I don't remember all the particulars, but contaminated oil is circulated through the filter, under constant flow, a number of times, and the amount of particle removal or collection (cannot remember which way it is tested) after a specified number of passes, determines the micron rating. All the dirt is not removed in one pass. This standard steady state test, with a constant flow, does not tell the whole story, however. What this filter company demonstrated was that when a filter is subjected to pressure or flow surges (such as when starting with cold oil, or even as the flow changes), the filter media will flex. Paper media will then tend to release some of the contaminants back into the flow stream, in a process termed "desorption The standard multipass test will not show this to be a problem, but the release of the contaminants was very significant, and negated much of the advantage of the filtration. The glass fiber media was much more resistant to desorption than the paper media. It also took out more of the contamination in the first pass. But was also considerably more expensive. My employer, Caterpillar, then co-developed a filter with a patented spiral wrap strap around the media to prevent flexing and desorption. So, lacking the ability to use a Caterpillar filter (I don't yet have one of our 10.2 liter diesels in my 93 T/A :-), I'm using the PF35Ls with great confidence that they will make a big difference in engine life."

Very good information. Only the best is good enough for a 20+ year old Brath with only 65,000 miles. The oil and filter change tomorrow.

NEXT?

I can't find any record of the last Radiator flush date in my otherwise voluminous maintainance file which, (scooterhead/pre-owner/Jimmy Buffet wantabee/NAPA Valley wine connioseur/SoB), Ron, dutifully kept with NASA style. Please advise on rundown list for the best preventative maintainance recomendations on servicing all cooling systems.

You can tell this is my first Barthyear, huh? Auctally, the Six Month Anniversity and Eeeennnda of honeymoon. K -Y running low! He He!

Touring and tournament season kicks off next month and runs thru October. I can see driving 5,000 mile or more this summer.... soooo, just need to do all the best stuff for peace of mind and easiest resale when that time eventually does come. I believe this Barth will last me a lifetime and would'nt trade her for bigger, fancier rig. I like the way a 28' will slip into tight places, including traffic.
It has all the amendities this old boy requires with no sacfifice of comfort.

So Bill, you had to work the dog shift? Realized later there is a big time change in our zones. I woke up too damn early, fretting about all the maintainance I need in the next week.

All, thanks again,
Don

Bill is this what you mean?



Check out this page for more "hot stuff".http://www.koolmat.com/rv.shtml

------------------

Hey Bill H,

I just tried to crank my genset and no spark. I tried both switches. Then realized I have no house DC either, since the new CD solenoid installation. I checked the batts and they are strong. Which wire did my starter/alternator pros overlook?

I don't know why I didn't try to crank the genset before I left the shop. Like plumbing repairs, seems one thing leads to another. Could the fault be in that the first solenoid (circuit breaker?) in line (closest to the battery locker) where all the major DC wiring merges? They did'nt touch it but now I'm wondering if the CD solenoid is having an adverse effect on this primary solenoid? Dang I wished you lived next door!

Don

Update:
Correction, I do have DC house power......found poor contact of master fuse in fuse box next to SHORE/GEN switch box. But, still no power to genset starter?
Found 4 dry cells in one of the deep cycle coach batts which is now on trickle charger.
I don't understand why these battery are using so much water?

quote:

Originally posted by dogill:
Update:
Correction, I do have DC house power......found poor contact of master fuse in fuse box next to SHORE/GEN switch box. But, still no power to genset starter?
Found 4 dry cells in one of the deep cycle coach batts which is now on trickle charger.
I don't understand why these battery are using so much water?

Don, your batteries should be charged at 14.2 volts when they are low, and should finish off at 13.2 volts. Prolonged charging at over 13.2 volts will boil off acid. You need a good digital voltmeter for this. My personal preference is ABC. Have you checked your batteries with a hydrometer after charging?

Do you have a wiring diagram?

I can send you a copy of the one for my 84 30tag.

On mine, the coach DC power goes from the batts to the genset starter terminal, then to the fuse box in the closet. Perhaps you should track the big heavy wire from the genset starter back to the battery or solenoid.

But I am a little confused here. Does your genset not crank or does it crank with no spark?