The FAA did attribute one crash to Marvel Mystery Oil. (I presume the proximate cause was engine failure.) I'm not sure I buy into that finding, but I've not read the report.

I have an external oil cooler on the engine. Does anyone have an idea how to flush it out when I change the oil. It is mounted above the filter so I guess most of it just drains but the 454 only takes 5 quarts to fill the oil after a change so I am not so sure it is empty.

Help:

Timothy

Unless the oil's full of sludge, it should drain fine. You could disconnect it and use temporary hoses to blow it out with compressed air if you're curious about what's in there. Put the compressed air into the upper connection.

Otherwise, it shouldn't need flushing.

Rusty, what do you think of Amsoil?

I looked at Amsoil specs a few days ago (I have no idea why) and I noted that the list OEM quals, but nothing about MILSPECs. Whether that's an oversight, or its products were never submitted, or they got a non-pass, I don't know. I kinda like to stay with the MIL-L/PRF-2104-series or the -46152 series - very tough tests. But so are some of the OEM tests...

Otherwise, I have no hands-on experience with Amsoil's products. However, since the products have synthetic base stocks, I see no problems in using them. The fact it promotes the use of oil analysis for its products is comforting, as the companies making lesser oils generally shy away from that.

Rusty, et al,

Timothy's post brings up a related issue I'd like to see discussed..........

Are there any engine oil cooling after-market add-ons that pay their way in lowering engine operating temps for a 454? Some that come to mind are:

1. Additional oil radiators installed inline with OEM radiator (Hayden, etc).

2. The extra length oil filter for added capacity?

3. Deeper oil pans for extra oil & so-called "cooling fins" along the bottom.

4. Oil pans with "cooling tubes" installed.

In general, what part does cooler oil play vs. the cooling system efficiency?....Is it possible to get the oil "too cool"?, etc. etc. To a novice, it seems that any successful attempts at cooling the oil will reduce the workload on the main coolant system- a system less-than-stellar in a 454 anyway.

Inquirying minds would like to know..........

Same question as above but transmission fluid instead of engine oil. Your preference for fluid? Flushing the transmission to get all of the stuff out?

I heard about disconnecting the transmission line after doing a fluid change (on this site) and having the fluid run into a bucket while motor is running. What's your thoughts on that? Do they make a fluid that cleans the transmission out before doing a service?

Any thoughts on the "BGFindAShop.Com" commercials that push a system flush?



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http://www.truckroadservice.com/

A little word like

"et al"

seems like a big way of saying "and others"

New post...
No more little big words for me, et al!



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http://www.truckroadservice.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Lee:
Rusty, et al,

Timothy's post brings up a related issue I'd like to see discussed..........

Are there any engine oil cooling after-market add-ons that pay their way in lowering engine operating temps for a 454? Some that come to mind are:

1. Additional oil radiators installed inline with OEM radiator (Hayden, etc).

2. The extra length oil filter for added capacity?

3. Deeper oil pans for extra oil & so-called "cooling fins" along the bottom.

4. Oil pans with "cooling tubes" installed.

In general, what part does cooler oil play vs. the cooling system efficiency?....Is it possible to get the oil "too cool"?, etc. etc. To a novice, it seems that any successful attempts at cooling the oil will reduce the workload on the main coolant system- a system less-than-stellar in a 454 anyway.

Inquirying minds would like to know..........

1. Yup. I use Long's biggest stacked plate cooler. #4739 for my trans. With a manual control fan. The manual control lets me start the fan before the trans starts to get hot and allows more cooling in slow traffic or fighting your way into a tough boondocking spot. I have converted my engine oil cooler to full flow oil cooling and used -12 lines, eliminating the stupid little air- conditioner type lines and fittings. I also eliminated the radiator engine oil/water heat exchanger, replacing it with a Long stacked plate cooler in the air stream.

2. My favorite oil filter, the AC PF35L is not super long, but it is by no means a shorty, either. Again, search this site for numbers. Or Google PF35L or 25013454.

3. Deeper pans? Do you mean engine or trans? On a Pee, I don't think there is a lot of ground clearance for a deeper pan, engine or transmission. With our own preference for boondocking, I would not want to give up ground clearance.
As far as trans pans go, the MH TH400 pan is already deeper than a car pan. Check depth of any aftermarket pan before buying. I don't know of any that are deeper than the MH pan. Fins gotta be good, though. An aluminum pan will transfer more heat than a steel one. Ram air to the torque converter or even a water spray will also help. I achieved substantial reductions in engine oil temp on Corvairs with a finned pan. The best pans have pins or ribs inside, too, to carry heat to the outside fins.


4. Again, eng or trans? My tranny guy says the tubes develop leaks. He builds only racing and tow trannies, so his word is gold.

There is advice in both directions on trans oil being too cold. I believe running the trans fluid through the radiator heat exchanger after the cooler heats up the oil to the proper temperature. GM recommends that, too.

Here is a paste from the GM manual:

"OIL TEMPERATURE MEASURED AT CONVERTER OUTLET TO COOLER 300F is the maximum temperature. This is the normal place to install a temperature gage or signal. The temperature in this location will vary significantly with each vehicle start-up or hill. If the temperature reaches 350F, reduce throttle. To lower the transmission temperature with the transmission in NEUTRAL, run the engine at 1,200 RPM for 2-3 minutes to cool the oil. Do
not allow the converter outlet temperature to exceed 350F. Keep a close check to prevent the engine cooling system from overheating. 350F would be typical of rocking the vehicle in mud, snow, or sand, or a transmission in stall (full throttle, no vehicle movement). When the transmission is in stall, the transmission will develop heat at a rate of one degree per second
of stall.

OIL TEMPERATURES MEASURED IN THE SUMP
150F -- Minimum operating temperature for continuous operation. It is possible in low ambient temperature to overcool the transmission with oil to air-type coolers; it is hard to overcool if used in conjunction with oil to water coolers installed in most standard automotive radiators.
190F-200F -- Maximum oil level checking temperature. Beyond this, readings are not reliable because of expansion.
285F -- Maximum sump/oil pan temperatures for short duration such as a long hill climb.
300F -- Metal parts inside the transmission begin to warp and distort in varying degrees, seals melt rapidly, and transmission fluid life is extremely short due to oxidation and distress.

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID OXIDATION Automatic transmission fluid
can provide up to 100,000 miles of service before oxidation occurs under normal operating temperatures of about 170F. Above normal operating temperatures, the oxidation rate doubles (useful life of the fluid is cut in half) with each 20 degree increase in temperature. The approximate life expectancy at various temperatures is a follows:
Degrees F Miles
175 100,000
195 50,000
212 25,000
235 12,000
255 6,000
275 3,000
295 1,500
315 750
335 325
375 80
390 40
415 Less than 30 minutes
NOTE: THE ABOVE CHART IS BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT OIL TEMPERATURE REMAINS CONSTANT FOR THE MILES INDICATED. TEMPERATURES WHICH APPEAR FOR SHORT PERIODS, SUCH AS CLIMBING HILLS, ETC., WOULD NEED TO BE AVERAGED AGAINST NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURES TO DETERMINE ACTUAL LIFE EXPECTANCY"


As far as engine oil, there is most definitely a "too cool" temperature. Oil has to boil off water and pollutants. I had a racing motorcycle that would collect water in its dry sump oil system when driven gently or on short trips. I literally drained water out of the bottom of the dry sump tank before oil came out. I use a thermostatic sandwich adapter on mine to assure quick warm up and prevent over cooling. I believe Rusty will have exact numbers.

1. External coolers can be installed - I wouldn't recommend bypassing the cooling tubes in the radiator as they prevent radical temperature changes.

Pulling the line and letting the transmission fluid pump out won't hurt (unless it's run dry for a lengthy time). But it won't help, either, as the pump loses suction before the sump is dry. Pulling the pan after the transmission's sat a while gets all that can be got.

The trick with contemporary transmissions is how to drain the fluid from the torque converter - they used to have a drain plug, but no more.

There are shops that have a flushing system, and these are the most effective. Synthetic transmission fluid is worth it IMHO.

The numbers bill h provided regarding trans temps are very informative, and I'd say still applicable. Contemporary car engines run hotter than our older trucks or RVs, with thermostats sometimes up around 225F, but running trans temps above 250-260 F should be avoided except for short-duration loads...

bill h, the water in your motorcycle's sump sounds odd; unless the rig ran non-detergent oil, the water should have been suspended in the oil, even with a dry sump. Dry sumps, however, do reduce the effectiveness of a detergent in picking up the water (but once picked up, it should stay suspended), as does loafing an engine designed for high continuous loads.

Extra-capacity oil filters are becoming rare, as they contain extra waste oil and take more fill. They're marketing- and politically-driven, not engineering.

More oil capacity would make engineering sense, but the marketeers would collapse and die in droves if it ever happened.

Any engine-oil cooling thingies except external radiator-type coolers generally don't work very well, mainly because they're least-effective when the engine is laboring the hardest, like climbing a hill. Tubes in the oil sump using engine coolant fall into the sensibility range of self-administered open-heart surgery...

As far as transmission additives are concerned, like Trans-Medic, while some may have a mild detergency or solvent, and may clean out some gunk, I know of none I'd leave in a transmission. Varnish deposits in transmissions are rare (caused by overheating or too-long change intervals), so ATF has no detergents - none is needed, and the internal transmission parts aren't designed to resist them. I change the ATF in my diesel van and the RV every two years, and in the car (with synthetics) every three, regardless of mileage.

I generally change the motor oil in the van every 4 months, again regardless of mileage. The RV and car, being on synthetics, run 4 to six months, depending on mileage and idle time. I let nothing sit idle more than three weeks, including the RV generator which gets an hour's run at full load once a month (it's also on synthetics).

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
1. External coolers can be installed - I wouldn't recommend bypassing the cooling tubes in the radiator as they prevent radical temperature changes.

I had to do without my engine oil heat exchanger as US Radiator didn't make my size Desert Cooler with one. Besides, it didn't flow much oil or cool very well.

Pulling the line and letting the transmission fluid pump out won't hurt (unless it's run dry for a lengthy time). But it won't help, either, as the pump loses suction before the sump is dry. Pulling the pan after the transmission's sat a while gets all that can be got.

True. But if you keep putting in new fluid, you will eventually see by color when most of the old fluid is gone.[/B]


The trick with contemporary transmissions is how to drain the fluid from the torque converter - they used to have a drain plug, but no more.

Drains are nice, dang it. But the converter gets a fairly good change as mentioned above.

bill h, the water in your motorcycle's sump sounds odd; unless the rig ran non-detergent oil, the water should have been suspended in the oil, even with a dry sump. Dry sumps, however, do reduce the effectiveness of a detergent in picking up the water (but once picked up, it should stay suspended), as does loafing an engine designed for high continuous loads.

It was a Norton 650SS in the mid sixties. I don't remember what oil I used, but the water was a regular occurrence.


As far as transmission additives are concerned, like Trans-Medic, while some may have a mild detergency or solvent, and may clean out some gunk, I know of none I'd leave in a transmission. Varnish deposits in transmissions are rare (caused by overheating or too-long change intervals), so ATF has no detergents - none is needed, and the internal transmission parts aren't designed to resist them. I change the ATF in my diesel van and the RV every two years, and in the car (with synthetics) every three, regardless of mileage.



I have a low mileage 4L60E that is spinning a little before it engages after backing up. A very knowledgeable friend recommended some mouse milk or other. I forgot which. I am always of mixed expectations on additives. Stay tuned for mouse milk report.

quote:

I had to do without my engine oil heat exchanger as US Radiator didn't make my size Desert Cooler with one. Besides, it didn't flow much oil or cool very well.

OK - I wuz thinking this was a trans cooler...so don't listen to me, I don't know what I'm talking about...

quote:

Pulling the line and letting the transmission fluid pump out won't hurt (unless it's run dry for a lengthy time). But it won't help, either, as the pump loses suction before the sump is dry. Pulling the pan after the transmission's sat a while gets all that can be got.

True. But if you keep putting in new fluid, you will eventually see by color when most of the old fluid is gone.

I agree, but that wasn't stated in the first posting.

quote:

I have a low mileage 4L60E that is spinning a little before it engages after backing up. A very knowledgeable friend recommended some mouse milk or other. I forgot which. I am always of mixed expectations on additives. Stay tuned for mouse milk report.

This won't be what you want to hear, but it sounds like the clutches are worn (assuming the correct ATF is in the tranny). Note the slip-stick differntial for GM/Allisons and Fords is the opposite...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a low mileage 4L60E that is spinning a little before it engages after backing up. A very knowledgeable friend recommended some mouse milk or other. I forgot which. I am always of mixed expectations on additives. Stay tuned for mouse milk report.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This won't be what you want to hear, but it sounds like the clutches are worn (assuming the correct ATF is in the tranny). Note the slip-stick differential for GM/Allisons and Fords is the opposite...

###########################################################

My 1991 Oshkosh 460 is not engaging when I put her in reverse unless I kick up the idle. I may have to get it up around 900 rpm when its hot to get it in reverse but it will always go in reverse (at idle) if its cold.

I am under the impression that the transmission is failing. I am going to drain out the fluid and flush it to see what happens. I want to replace the oil with synthetic but am of the opinion that at this stage I should just yank out the transmission and replace it.

I have had this condition since purchasing it 3+ years ago and have put on a couple thousand miles since then. I remember riding with friends in the 80's and his Lincoln did the same thing.

Do you think there is any hope or should I save my money on the fluid change and just pull it?

When you say
"Note the slip-stick differential for GM/Allisons and Fords is the opposite..."
are you saying if the wrong transmission oil is in there I could get the same symptoms? When I got it 3+ years ago it had a transmission fluid change 6 months before. I also let it sit a year before putting it one the road as I was gutting and redoing the interior.

I don't work on many automatics in my line of work so any info will be put to use!

Hey Dave: Sell a Barth to a transmission shop owner. We need to round out this forum.


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http://www.truckroadservice.com/

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited October 15, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited October 15, 2005).]

It's hard to say what the problem is (is this a C6 tranny?*) - it sounds to me like a possible torque converter problem (it's not stalling when it should - the fact it stalls when cold indicates torque converter as opposed to clutches or valves. If there's no sign of clutch slippage when running, the clutches sound OK; valves tend to work better when warmed up.)

Or it could be a sticky reverse valve.

Or that the reverse operating arm needs adjusting.

In any event I'm fairly sure it's not due for an overhaul.

I would first try another complete flush and a refill with mineral ATF, and have a Tranny Guy check the reverse arm operation - it may not be opening the reverse valve fully.

Slip-stick differential refers to the frictional properties of two lubricated plates sliding together. GM transmissions' ATF produces less friction as the relative speed between the plates decreases. Older Fords' (using Type F) had a friction component that increased as the speed between the plates decreased, which is why the Ford shifts seemed "crisper".

Later Fords use Dexron/Mercon, so there's little difference. I'd guess yours uses Dexron, and the symptoms you describe wouldn't depend on the type of ATF.

* I think somewhere I have the specs for external adjustments on that transmission.

Rusty, is WRGL in your vocabulary?
While getting through college I worked at Shell's Wood River research lab working in the gas turbine group. One of the tricks we used during tests, both piston and turbine was a blotter spot test. Put a drop of oil on a blotter sheet every 4 hours or so and follow the deterioration of the oil measured by the detergents ability to carry dirt generated as the oil and additive package deteriorated.
I agree with Rotella being one of the best. I use it in multigrade in a 79 Mercedes 240 diesel with 300K.
Given the quality of both engine technology and oil and additive package technology presently available I have opted not to change to synthetics. If I were to use the syns I think I would follow with the blotter test and possibly check acid number and run until there was a change.
In 1969 our tests indicated boredom occured before measured changes occured in piston engines.
Tim