i tried several searches here before asking this.
phred says to use gasoline treatment for storage of 2 months or longer. (http://www.phrannie.org/storeRV.html)
what is the opinion of the Barth experts on this? what is best? how about the other advice he offers on storage concerning not running the engine periodically when it can't be driven, etc.?

thanks, and much appreciated-
geoffrey

I can answer part of that, having been, in a former life, a fuels and lube engineer.

If I lived in the Great White North ("GWN", which I have) and parked my motorhome for 11 to 11.5 months a year dues to icy roads, I'd put a cutoff valve in the fuel line to empty the carburetor before storage.

I do use Sta-Bil in the gaso cans I keep in a shed for the standby generator.

Likewise, the advice on "nearly emptying" the gaso tank is also not wise. What can happen is, that since the tank "breathes", inhaling air as the temp drops, then exhaling as it rises, that humid air being inhaled cools and drops its water into the tank. As it warms, the water stays and the cycle is repeated. Fill the tank. The less air space the better. If there's a possibility there's already water in there, then Dri-Gas, but acetone's cheaper and just as good.
Engine oil should be changed as one of the last things before layup.

Running the engine at idle, as Phred says is stupid. Even stupider is running it 30 yards up and back. If you can't run it 10 miles (15 for diesels, leave it alone).

The comments on "parking it level" because fuel will "migrate to the low end" is also absurd - Unless you've flipped your RV backing it into its winter repose, the fuel tank will be the lowest level. (Google: "Gravity")

He's partially right about battery chargers, but if yours is one like an Intellitec with the Charge Wizard, then he's wrong. I'd get a small battery charger, and charge all batteries once a week if I didn't have a "smart" charger. Charging keeps the battery topped with sulfuric acid (very low freezing point) whereas a discharged battery is more water than h2so4 - and you should know the freeze point of that.

Likewise, his instructions on water tanks are SO 19th Century. Get propylene glycol antifreeze and purge the system with it. Unlike ethylene glycol, it won't kill you.

Why pull fuses to unused 12V circuits - turn 'em off...sheeessshhh...

If you feel the need to preserve the upper cylinders, then a VPI (Vapor Phase Inhibitor, or also VSI [Vapor Space Inhibitor], similar) oil should be sprayed into the air intake...

Transmission service is necessary (WHERE did he come up with THAT one?!)

I like this one: "Cover the air cleaner with screen or aluminum foil" to prevent bugs from entering. If the bugs are small enough to get through the air cleaner element, then you need to call Orkin or Terminex...I'd also like to hear from Dave Bowers and others in the GWN about bug infestations suffered at -50F...

Removal from Storage

Here's another gem: "Do not start engine up right away. Disconnect coil wire (check manual--some vehicles need a different step) and turn engine over several seconds to get oil up to valve train, etc."

(Empty the carburetor at storage time, and this will be automatic...)

Anyway, to elaborate on what Phred said about covers, don't cover the motorhome unless the cover can be spaced away from the shell to allow breathing. Don't cover roof vents. There's no reason to plug the exhaust (if you do, condensation will occur in the cylinders); Let 'em breathe.

Hey Rusty....Gimmee yer thoughts about chokin' the engine to a stop by pourin' MMO down the carb throat....I like to think I'm coating the top end for long term storage......

Since Marvel Mystery Oil, by its maker's choice, remains a "mystery" as to its constituents, I can't be sure what benefits will arise from its use as you describe.

But it's unlikely to cause anything bad, which in the oil industry, is commendable...

As my Grandma used to say (prepatory to spooning me some wretched-tasting elixir, "It can't hurt!")

Thank you Rusty!
some of phred's advice seemed almost logical and some made no sense, hence my questioning. your comment

quote:

But it's unlikely to cause anything bad, which in the oil industry, is commendable...

gave me a good laugh.

we filled up the 'Toaster' only about 28 miles from home last trip so the tank was ~90% full when it was parked (about 5 months ago). It may be here another couple of months before it gets driven, so I think I'll order some Sta-Bil or PRI-G to pour into the tank to help stabilize what's there.

when I apprenticed at the jaguar shop in the 80's, the owner swore by Magic Marvel Mystery Oil. if an older vehicle that hadn't been run in awhile came in, he'd remove the spark plugs and put a few CCs of it down each hole, then turn the engine over by hand several times before engaging the starter to attempt to start for the first time after so long. he claimed it helped reduce sticking at the ring/cylinder wall junction enough that it almost eliminated broken rings while starting engines in that type condition.
what do you think of it (MMMO) being used as a fuel additive in older gas engines such as the chevy 350 or 454?

geoffrey

Well, Since MMO has "Mystery" as its middle name, I don't have a clue as to what the hell it actually contains. So my well-studied opinion is: "I haven't the slightest idea... "

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Well, Since MMO has "Mystery" as its middle name, I don't have a clue as to what the hell it actually contains.

This is taken from another site that I have been to in the past. This is not my posting.

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POSTING
I sent a sample of MMO to Blackstone for analysis. I told them that the type of oil was UNK, but that it may be ATF.

MMO certainly looks like ATF, though the smell is only similar.

Here's what I received back just today.

I'm quoting from the comments section of the report.

JIM: This isn't ATF unless it is mixed with something. ATFs have a viscosity in the 10W range and flash off at about 360F at the lowest. ATFs usually have more additive in them than this. We suspect this may be a light hydraulic known generically as Mil-S-5606. It is used in high flying aircraft hydraulic systems being impervious to the cold. No moisture or insolubles found. No wear metals. This oil appears, from here, to be in serviceable condition.

end of comments

As for the elements that were found in the sample there were 32 ppm of Boron, 2 ppm of silicon, 1 ppm cacium, 902 ppm phosphorus, and 2 ppm zinc.

The SUS viscosity at 210F was 34.4. The flashpoint was 190F.

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I have an analysis done back in 1989. That analysis showed 790 ppm of phosphorous. This would be a relatively good check, not knowing the different methods used.
By this analysis:
It is a light napthenic oil ( about 3 wt).
About 20% solvent-probably mineral spirits
Dye
790 ppm phosphorous
Wintergreen for smell

The solvent would tend to provide some cleaning ability, at low temperatures.

The low viscosity would tend to act as a detergent.

The phosphorous probably provides an EP (extreme pressure) ability, or would tend to prevent scoring or seizure. This agent is already in most motor oils.

History...

An automotive engineer, Burt Pierce, developed it after WWI. He is the one that invented the Marvel carburator. The carb was bought by GM and he then consulted for them. He never told what was in the oil, so it became "mystery oil". He incorporated as Marvel oil. In 1984 the corporation was bought by three long time employees.

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I think the zinc is used as an extreme pressure lubricant. They used to put extra zinc(dithiophophate) in motor oils formulated as "Racing" oil. Trademarked with names like "Z-7" etc. Then took most of it back out because it fouls catalytic convertors.
END POSTING

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I took this from the site www.thedieselstop.com I remember reading it awhile back and thought now might be a good time to put it in here. The link to the actual thread is http://www.thedieselstop.com/archives/ubbthreads/1999Ea...&sb=5&o=&fpart=1.htm

What say you Rusty? Is it still a Mystery Oil or has it been cracked?

Bill N.Y.

Phosphorous is more of an anti-scuff compound than EP. Shell's TCP gasoline additive was tricresyl phosphate, and it was used for the anti-scuff in some formulae. Zinc, usually in something like zinc [diorgano]dithiophosphate is an excellent EP additive. Calcium is kind of in between P and Zn, but calcium or Barium salts are very effective ash-type detergents used in motor oil.

MMO's flash point is quite low at 190F (gasoline range - and it wasn't stated whether that was closed- or open-cup). 34.4 SSU viscosity is about SAE 10 to 20 (not 10W, but maybe he meant "W" to mean "weight") at 210F. These two specs indicate that it's definitely a blend, but with a lower flash point (guessing open-cup) than mineral spirits. That would make at least one constituent quite volatile, and one would expect it to evaporate rather quickly.

It's still a "mystery", but from the analyses, I would guess that its purpose is to act as a penetrating oil/solvent, leaving behind an oily film. The choice of a napthenic base stock would be to ensure that any deterioration would leave soft, gummy deposits, as paraffinics tend to leave gritty ones.

It might have done the job in the crankcase of cleaning the upper galleries if non-detergent oil were used, but detergent additives in modern motor oils do a far better job (Shell's Rimula [High-ash Series III for off-road engines using high sulfur fuels - like Rotella T on steroids] is rebranded as a cleaning/flushing oil and as a steel preservative).

There could be a benefit in fogging cylinders before layup, but not with the spark enabled - the whole thing would combust - (and I'm not sure I'd want to do it with a hot engine); a VSI oil (Like Mobil's Vaprotec or Shell's VSI Oil - fogged in cold - and neither should ever be used for any other automotive application) would be preferable, as the vapors protect the heads as well as the cylinders - I don't think one could expect MMO fogged in to coat those. And keep in mind the crankcase oil also coats and protects the cylinder walls.

WOW! thanks. much more information than I expected. sometimes I can hardly wait to see who posts what information on a topic. I've even been accused of being a Barthmobile forum junkie...

focusing back to an earlier question, is there a 'best' brand of gasoline treatment? the PRI website http://www.priproducts.com/ has a good sell on their product. what's the real scoop?

To go back to low tech verbiage for a bit, when I was growing up in Michigan we always 'pickled' our outboard and even I-O boat engines for the winter. This consisted of spraying a can of something into the intake while the motor idled, making it smoke and cough and eventually die. That was it till spring, when we'd crank away till it eventually sputtered back to life and smoked like crazy for a minute or two, then we were good to go for the summer. New plugs were needed more often than not, but those who pickled always had better engines than those who didn't. Just a little blast from the 60's.

Rusty & others have forgotten more than I'll ever know about lubricants, but at the risk of sounding liking a snakeoil salesman, I gotta put a plug in for Marvel Mystery Oil - something I grew up with on the farm years ago, and have used around aircraft ever since (Not FAA approved so it's our secret, OK?)

No doubt that modern lubricant technology, gasolene improvements, metalurgy & engine design have made the use of such Mouse Milk products less necessary and perhaps largely redundant....but just maybe not 100% so.........

When I first got my '78/75k mi/454 a few years back, it had an oil consumption habit of about one quart/500-600 miles. Based on my own experience with previous 454's, I accepted that as just a quirk of the beast - other 454 operators also experienced similar consumption, so I was not concerned....no oil was leaking, none was seen being burned, it was just being "consumed" somehow......

Since purchase, I've substituted a quart of Pennzoil straight 30 with a quart of MMO in the crank at every change (3k mi). I also add about one quart to every 100 gal of gas.

This summer, my longest trip was about 1500 miles. The crankcase consumption was less than 1/2 quart for the whole trip....To me, good anecdotal evidence that MMO contributed to better sealing at the rings, valve guides & seals. I also had a head off this summer for a gasket R&R, and to my untrained eye, I was impressed as to how clean things looked....

Ironically, via MMO in the fuel, my oil comsumption is about the same (qt of MMO/500 mi), and it's more expensive oil to boot! But it gives me warm fuzzies to think that oil use isn't a byproduct of wear & tear anymore, but rather, results in positive benefits.....

I'm so convinced of this that I have an eBay MMO Inverse Oiler sitting here, ready to go in during winter layup. Details of this '30's-'40's era technology can be seen at:

http://www.members.tripod.com/vwjudsonregister/oiler_page.htm

So, in defiance of known science & logic, I'll continue to promote the semi-voodoo virtues of MMO.....It's chicken soup for my 454 - May not help, but it can't hurt

If it works, don't fix it.

Most likely the MMO helped free some stuck oil rings.

But if it were I, I'd put nothing in the crankcase (especially with a PCV system) with a flash point of 190F...

I'd try straight motor oil now, and see if the oil consumption reverts. My bet is it won't.

quote:

focusing back to an earlier question, is there a 'best' brand of gasoline treatment? the PRI website http://www.priproducts.com/ has a good sell on their product. what's the real scoop?

I think Chevron's Techron is hard to beat, with SeaFoam a close second.

quote:

Originally posted by geoffrey:
WOW! thanks. much more information than I expected. sometimes I can hardly wait to see who posts what information on a topic.

I know what you mean. I love coming to this site too!

quote:

Originally posted by geoffrey:
I've even been accused of being a Barthmobile forum junkie...

By who? The award for that would have to go to Rusty.


(Well, it's suppose to be a smiling star)

He's been gracing this site for a little less then a year (yep, that's it!) and he's already posted about 900x. I've been know (only once) to have fuzzy East Coast math but that's over 2.5 post a day.

This reminds me, I have to get an Anniversary gift for the wife. Rusty's one year Barthmobile anniversary is coming up and my 16 year wedding anniversary falls on that same date. Hey Dave, got anything in the Barthmobile store my wife might want? I need something that the wife won't look at and accuse me of being a Barthmobile junkie!!! Any ideas? It's only 16 days away!

Bill N.Y.

quote:

Originally posted by geoffrey:
is there a 'best' brand of gasoline treatment?

I was a happy Gumout user for years. The purchase of a V-12 Jag caused me to search farther, as a 326 inch engine with 12 injectors is just clog-prone. I used Techron with a little better results, and a few others. After recommandation by the owner of an old-time auto parts store, I finally settled on Red Line Fuel System Conditioner and never looked back. He said all RL users smile and keep buying more. The car sat a lot, and was always perfect after I switched to the RL. The fuel filter needed replacement shortly after putting in the RL, and it is a humongous filter and it was a low mileage car.

On occasion, I would buy and elderly motorcycle with gummed up carbs, and had better luck with RL than with any other product.

My FI Toyota failed smog, passed after RL. It has only slightly larger individual cylinder displacement than the jag, so still probably has pretty small injectors.

My BMW K75 has very small pintle-type injectors, which are quite clog prone and need almost constant cleaning. RL smoothed it out and keeps it smooth.

My Barth had a new carb, so didn't use RL for a while. My dang Kohler Klanker had always been fractious, defying my attempts to make it behave. I dumped some RL in the tank, and it began to work really well after that. Unfortunately, the RL worked so well that it loosened up a whole bunch of crud in my main fuel system and it clogged the little inlet filter on the Qjet, which bypassed (by design) and let all the crud in the carb. That gave me a stuck float, and flooding. Not a biggie, I just worked the float up and down from the top and all was good. However, the flooding allowed gas to get into the charcoal canister and it came back through the vent and filled my carb with charcoal. On a Friday afternoon with a weekend of races to attend. What fun. Fortunately, I had the clutch head driver with me. I hate working on Q jets.

So, RL is so good it almost ruined a weekend.

So, use a double spring in your Qjet inlet filter and be prepared to replace filters if you use RL.