quote:

Originally posted by Bill N.Y.:
See how easy the trap was laid? You take off the radiator and now your doing a minor engine rebuild.

If you have the oil pan off then replace the oil pump!

Your toe bone connected to your foot bone,
Your foot bone connected to your ankle bone,
Your ankle bone connected to your leg bone,
Your leg bone connected to your knee bone,
Your knee bone....

Well at least I'm not spending my money! Oh, and Bill H, I bit me tongue way back...

Bill N.Y.

Thank you for my morning chuckle.

Been there, done that with "toe bone connected to the foot bone," business. Ten years ago I bought an elderly Dodge Xplorer van that "needed a little work," to take my mind off recent heart bypass surgery.

The engine didn't idle well so I did an ignition tuneup. Some improvement, but not enough. Checked compression found some weak cylinders. Valve job? Pulled the rocker covers, checked valve lift. All was not hunky dory, not uncommon in Mopars of that vintage. New cam? Pulled the intake, found clinkers of burnt oil in the lifter valley. Nearly all exhaust was going through the intake manifold heat passage, cooking the oil in the lifter valley. Frozen heat riser valve?. Pulled all the junk off the front end to get the cam out. Slack in the timing chain. New chain? Pulled the cam. Found scored & pitted camshaft bearings, & said the word.

Went down to my friendly local machine shop for advice on cam bearings. He said, "Tell ya' what I'm gonna do."

He had a freshly rebuilt Mopar 360 gathering dust on the floor. An off-roader had given him a down payment to rebuild his engine & never came back for it. 1200 bucks, he said, & it would be mine. I weighed the dollars against the aggravation, & said, "sold."

So a simple tuneup metamorphosed into a complete engine replacement. Of course, after I got the new engine up and running well, then's when the real problems started, but I don't want to re-live them, & you don't want to hear about them.

They blocked the squirt, but still dribbled a lot....

Yeah, I had that. Caught it from a girl in Oceanside when I was at Pendleton years ago.

I feel your collective pain. Six years ago, my then brother-in-law was trying to donate his '87 LWB Ford E350 diesel van (He had bought it new - 84K miles). He couldn't find a charity in Altlanta that would take it.

My (now ex-) wife decided that it would be great to have if we had to evacuate our house in a hurricane (mostly due to the river's coming up). So I found a local charity that would take it if we would immediately buy it. So they did and I did - $300, and I got ripped.

His daughter brought it down from Atlanta; I'm amazed she made it. There was 120 deg play in the steering wheel. I barely made it to the tire store (25 mph - belt separation on the two rear as I got about 5 miles from the store).

First cleanup, included a ham(?) sandwich, half a burger, and french fries inside one of the consoles. A can of Coke had been spilled on the engine cover, and not even wiped up. Etc.

Then:

Refinished all wood

Repaired and repainted interior plastic trim

New waterpump, radiator, thermostat, sender. Got about 2 cups of crud out of the cooling system. New heater core and A/C evaporator. New A/C compressor and expansion valve.

Overhauled front end/steering - new steering box, hoses, tie rods, steering column bearings.

New driveshaft universals

Removed 250' of wire from security system that never worked; rewired back to stock. New taillights, radio, retractible antenna. New instrument voltage regulator

New fuel pump, injector returns, glow plugs.

New wheels (old ones warped)

New brake calipers and pads, front; new cylinders and shoes, rear (also reassembled correctly, since there were parts missing.)

Repaired fuel sender in the front tank.

Refurbished areas along drip rail that had rusted out due to entrapment of moisture in the crud that had accumulated.

Repainted roof and hood. New door seals and window seals driver's door.

Since, it's been a reliable truck, and I'm glad I have it. I think front transmission seal is leaking, but that's the only thing in the past three years.

Tim, thinking about you, I inquired of a friend who did a 454 cam change as part of a MH rebuild. Here is what he wrote in return:

Hi Bill,

I got the 260AH kit. Here's a link to it: http://www.powerandperformancenews.com/store/merchant.m...-302-4&Store_Code=CC

It's a fairly strong cam. I talked with the Comp Cams help line, discussed my application and what other changes I'd be making, and they recommended this one. The engine builder and I talked about it too, and he agreed it would be a good choice. The profile assumes you have a TBI, stock chip, and exhaust upgrade, all of which I have.

Not sure what the advertised HP/Torque curve is, but it's not the typicel "RV Cam". Those do tend to have great low end torque, but the time I feel that I really need the power is when I'm climbing a hill, downshift to 3rd, and the RPM's go up. This one seems to do the trick.

I'd love to get her on a dyno and see what's really happening. If we visit Centralia, WA this year (not for sure that we will) I'll get Brazels to put it on theirs. As for MPG, we were getting about 7.8 back east, but on the trip out west we've run 65-70 and hit lots of hills. Average now is down to about 7.4 mpg

We had considered a 502 crate motor, but the conversion was going to cost way too much for us. I'm not completely "legal" right now (no cat) but that's all it would take to get us past an inspection if FL ever starts them -- or if we sell the coach to someone in an inspection state.

Just realized you haven't seen the whole writeup on the rebuild. Here's a link to that:
http://www.bestfitrecruiting.com/EngineRebuild.htm

So where are you guys? Having a good summer?

Mac

Now, Mac is a sharp guy, as you will see if you follow the links and the links within the links. However, after consultation with other smart guys, he chose a hotter cam than I recommended for you. I suspect the reason is that he has a 95 or 96 MH, which is a 4 speed. With more gear, a hotter cam works. With a 3 speed trans, a broader torque range is better. So, a hotter cam is more appropriate for him, while I suspect a slightly less hot cam is better for you. Particularly if you tow.

So, I am still a 204/214 guy. My crate ht502 has a 204/209, chosen by the GM engineers from dyno tests, so I am not the only guy in that ballpark, however mine is a roller motor, which skews things a little.

HERE is a site that has a graph of the power and torque curves from a dyno test. On a 454, that cam would have the curves a little higher up the RPM band, but not by much. In my own case, I cruise at just under 3000 rpm, so the power and torque is right where I want it. Perhaps some cam grinders can provide you with dyno curves for their products. I am never influenced by peak numbers, but more by the area under the curve and how flat the curve is. K factor. And the rpm where the power and torque are. I have built a few engines with too much cam, and had to go down, as I didn't like rowing it along with the shift lever. Heavier vehicles take softer cams.

That said, I may well stick a cam like his in our 95 454 Pick Up.

In Plato's early Socratic dialogues, we are instructed to define our terms. When you read a cam recommendation from a cam grinder or seller, you gotta pin them down on what exactly is mid range. For some, we could define their mid range as the top of our RPM band. Get RPM figures from them and compare them to what your tach reads on the road and up hills. I notice in Comp Cams catalog, they give an rpm operating range listing for each cam. It seems pretty good, from my own experience.

Speaking of cams, I would recommend a new distributor drive gear with a new cam. The school of hard knocks has taught me that a used gear does not always like a new gear. And used gears only like their mates, not strangers, new or old.

I am working on the bolt that holds the top of the alternator bracket. It has snapped off in the head. It was more than just warm at my place last weekend so little got done. Oh I also snapped off an easyout off in the bolt. I know better than to do this but did it any way.

The good news I now have some time to think about the cam.

Good point on the distributor gear; I have to order one of those pump the oil with the big drill motor things anyway and will get a new gear and as N.Y. Dave points out a new pin at the same time.


I'll keep you posted:

Timothy

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:
...I have or order one of those pump the oil with the big drill motor things anyway...

I used a real lond screwdriver that was broken at the handle (think hammer and chisel) and removed what was left of the handle. I attached that to the end of my drill to pre lube the oil galleys.

Bill N.Y. N.Y. Dave

Hi Dave:

Sorry Bill.
I have a couple of screw drivers that cry out for hammer chisel and maybe even a little grinder modification, thanks. This is less than the $30.00 listed for the tool.

Timothy

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:
This is less than the $30.00 listed for the tool.

Ooops, it looks like I just bit my tongue off.

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:
The good news I now have some time to think about the cam.

As in... maybe not doing it?

I hate to sound negative (really, I do) but I think the aggravation of a cam job might be more then you can/should swallow (don't take offense) unless Bill H want to go up there and help you out. Lets see now... take the intake off to do the cam and then you'll hear "put on a new intake manifold and a carburetor, there's not much more involved!" While this is very true now your racking up more bucks, extra time and the potential of more broken bolts and gremlins that screw up other things once you touch it.

All of the bolts are just as old as the one that snapped off. How many more might break? I'm pretty sure that if I was doing this the most I would want to sink extra into would be dropping the pan (have to do it anyway) and replacing the oil pump, replace the drive pin on the distributor, replace the timing chain and gears, high flow water pump and the extras that you already allotted for (like the harmonic balancer) before we all started spending your money. Of course I would replace fuel lines and power steering hoses etc.

Ask yourself these questions: How much power do I have now? is it enough? Does it miss or tap like a bad lifter? Does it ping or run on? Is my intake manifold leaking oil, antifreeze, or has developed a vacuum leak? Do I have that kind of scratch (NY for money) laying around?

If I had a lifter noise or any of these other conditions I would do the cam and lifters, anything else I think might be overkill.

But of course if your up to the challenge and you have the extra money then I'll add in... "put on a new intake manifold and a carburetor, there's not much more involved!"

Bill N.Y. N.Y. Dave

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:

I have a couple of screw drivers that cry out for hammer chisel and maybe even a little grinder modification, thanks.
Timothy

Nah, you don't wanna do that. The Milodon pro tool has a sleeve to allow a concentric fit onto the oil pump shaft, a bushing just above the shaft to center it in the block, and a bushing topside to center it in the manifold. The screwdriver has none of these. The cut-off screwdriver has the potential do do break off one ear of the oil pump shaft. When pressure builds, it can do it rather abruptly, and you really do want everyting to be centered on the rotational axis.

If I can find it, I will loan you mine. Then you can spend the thirty dollars on a Lisle lifter removal tool Then you can probably pull out the lifters to change the cam without removing the intake manifold until you are ready. Summit has one for less, but it might be Chinese.

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:
The cut-off screwdriver has the potential do do break off one ear of the oil pump shaft.

I went down to the garage and found my tool. It's not a screwdriver but an old modified distributor base and the shaft with the gear removed.

Question is... why do I still have this thing? I see why the wife wants that garage cleaned out!

Looks like I got back to late to edit my post! Blame that one on N.Y. Dave!

N.Y. Dave

quote:

Originally posted by bill h:
you can spend the thirty dollars on a Lisle lifter removal tool Then you can probably pull out the lifters to change the cam.

With an emphases on probably.

Nice tool. I used to have something like that but found that sometimes one (or more) wouldn't slide out of the bore and any crud that broke loose wound up in the engine oil passage ways.

If your really going to do it be prepared to remove the manifold. Better yet, have Bill H show you how it works in person!

As far as the distributor gear pin shearing I have had two Big Block Chevy's and a 250 straight six shear off. Never had that problem with any of my Small Block Chevy's.

If he's going to do the cam he should replace the driven gear on the distributor and use a new shear pin.

I will gracefully bow to Bill H's advice as he's got more experience then I with the BBC and besides, he's coming up to help you anyway.

So Bill H, what intake manifold and carb would you use?

Bill N.Y.

No screwdriver got it.

Most of this stuff was on the one to two year list anyway, so the schedule gets shifted no big deal.

When I changed the sparkplug wires a few months back I got things crossed. Or maybe it was when I put the headers on last year; whenever it was I was so convinced that I had worked carefully I chose to pay to have someone point out the error, I still feel like a right idiot and hence the one thing at a time approach. But as we will see this is a rule that may best be viewed as flexible.

Here is the deal with the intake manifold. There is an exhaust leak that at this moment I think is coming from the intake manifold. Bill, I had soaked the intake manifold bolts in rust buster and each of them broke free nicely last weekend, god is good. An inspection of the intake manifold when I removed the carburetor so I would not dump junk into it while working reveals a black crystalline deposit similar to a posting earlier in our narrative I can’t find at the moment; I think this is an indicator of something bad. Oh well the point being the intake manifold has to come off at some point and now appears to be that point. The intake manifold is rather ugly, rusted, in fact I am not sure…. Oh well we’ll see when I pull it. As long as it is off putting a new one on is less work than cleaning and painting the old one, trust me I can tangent off to detail heaven with no effort.

The cam is not required at the moment but that timing cover is definitely shot and a new cam will give me a window into how things are worn in the engine (is that a good rational, I think so). The front seal leaks and so does the pan. Besides I am my own inner child and it is only a couple of hundred bucks, varoom varoom.

Now I am still in Irish mode, taking things apart. When the indefinable scope of the work is complete and it comes time for assembly any guest from El Segundo who may wish to drop by will be welcomed with open arms. There is a nice place in the garage reserved to park a bike.

Yea N.Y. Bill as I have never put a cam in a Chevy there is every reason to expect an interesting learning curve; your point is well taken.



P.S. The Qjet stays for the moment. The "Oh boy let's see if we can talk that California guy into dual quads" discussion end right now. Sheeeesh

P.P.S.
Chineese stuff, I ordered from Summit two new V-Belt pulleys, Chineese (Ok from that Island that is part of Japan, China or not depending upon who you ask). Chrome, only about fifty bucks for the pair, no cleaning or painting required. While I have not had a chance to chat with Summit and the price was right I feel installing pulleys that are 0.200" out of round is something I'll just pass on thank you so much. I guess I'll just paint the old ones, I plan to check with March and Zoots to see how much their aluminum offerings are, if I can do the pair for under a hundred and a half aluminum it is. Zoots appears to only offer underdrive pulleys and I sure don't want that, so price and all we'll see. The set from Barth are rather rough, nice and round but very badly pitted even in the belt area. New Steel from Chevy is 175 for the pair, yikes.
p.p.p.s Do not clean the garage! The wife will just move her stuff in, well that is my life experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill N.Y.:
[ With an emphases on probably.

Nice tool. I used to have something like that but found that sometimes one (or more) wouldn't slide out of the bore and any crud that broke loose wound up in the engine oil passage ways.

yeah, in my first mention of the tool, I mentioned the necessity of softening the varnish. As per the design, any oil particles would have to go through the pump pickup screen and the filter before they got to the oil passages. If one is worried about oil crud, never, never, look at the underside of the heat riser passage of the intake manifold.

quote:

As far as the distributor gear pin shearing I have had two Big Block Chevy's and a 250 straight six shear off. Never had that problem with any of my Small Block Chevy's.

If he's going to do the cam he should replace the driven gear on the distributor and use a new shear pin.

Now, that's scary. I would never expect that roll pin to shear. I have seen roll pins get pretty stressed, and they usually bend a little as everything else around it fails. Then, they are hard to remove from what is left. Never had a failure, and I always use a high output pump, and often raise the filter bypass pressure by putting in a diesel spring. I believe the small block pin is the same as the BB. However, in view of what you experienced, I will withdraw my advice on re-using a two-dollar part. With all the high-strength parts on the market, I am surprised that no one sells a high strength gear pin. You know, Moroso, Milodon, ARP, someone.

quote:

So Bill H, what intake manifold and carb would you use?

Bill N.Y.

As mentioned earlier, the Performer manifold. Good street manifold. The Holley 8017 is also a good choice if you are non-EGR. Both are taller, so a shorter air cleaner top and a standard pickup element is required if your doghouse roof is close.

My carb preference for tow vehicles is the Qjet, although I have heard happy talk about the Edelbrock. I had C&J Engineering in Whittier do my Qjet.

News from the west.

I went to the local engine builder today and looked at a 454 block.

Any attempt at fiddling with the cam and lifters with the intake manifold on appears to be at best ill advised. I now more clearly appreciate your suggestions.

The broken alternator bracket hold down bolt on the front of the intake manifold that I suspect has been problematic for some time is next to what appears to be an exhaust port and is therefore a likely candidate for the leak. I will get it out and then move on to the rest of the project. I still can’t believe I was dumb enough to over stress the easy out and busted it off in the bolt.

I have not zeroed in on a CAM yet. I do notice that there are subtlety different CAMs suggested for later (smog) versions of the 454 as opposed to my smog free 1973; both applications refer to a cam for lower RPMs and make reference to "motorhome and or towing". Bill H’s friend used a cam he described that appears to be for the later engines. I have been unable to isolate the differences.


Oh yea, cam lift, some list a lift of about 500 thousands while other cams list a lift in the 400 and change range.

So help, please.

Is there a different "best" cam for pre smog?

What is the deal with lift? I don't know what to look for. OK, OK I have not picked up a manual yet to read what is stock, soon trust me.


Timothy