Continuing our thread drift into the X files.........Dynomax also has a new Ultraflow X Performance which looks nifty. A single mufler with a built-in X pipe. My LT1 Jag is gonna get one as soon as I get some feedback on it.

I've used the "original devices" Bill H mentions. He's right on about their performance.

I don't see any drift this is a nice 454 performance summary discussion. Thanks.

I checked last night and I have a stock replacement water pump; oh rats but it is nice I have learned before I put it in. Bill would you suggest Summit or is there a place in town that may have a good price on a high volume pump? Is there a brand you perfer? Does anyone else have a brand they suggest? Steel or aluminum?


Question:

Can I use the impact wrench to pull the bolt on the Harmonic dampener or will this bugger up the crank bearings? The bolts on the 3 belt pulley came out easily but the bolt in the center appears to be torqued a bit tighter and the engine just rotates.



Oil Pan:

As with a number of parts toward the front of the coach the oil pan is badly rusted. If the pan was easily removed then I planed to install a new pan, less work than painting. As it sounds like fully removing the pan is a major mining project I think I’ll just paint the darn thing. I really do not want to use the creeper to roll under and put on rust stopper and drip paint in my nose but it sounds like this will take less time than pulling the pan.


OK here is the plan:

This I will do now:

1) Get a shop manual.
2) I will order and then install the suggested motor home camshaft. Suggestions on a brand or a place to get the CAM?
3) I will install a new timing chain
4) I will install a new one-piece timing cover; I do not plan to go back into this area for a long while so the two piece one sounds like it just offers one more place to leak.
5) I am not going to attempt to put in a new oil pan; I am going to paint the old one.

This gets done later:

When time and money allow I’ll do the exhaust and intake manifold , at the same time I will do the distributor updating.



Some rambling.

Cam:

Now I understand the “two part” offerings for the timing covers. Discovering that it is necessary to drop the oil pan to get at the timing cover was completely unexpected.



Last weekend:

Hey what is that smell?
Engine degreaser.

Why is it collecting in that plastic box you built under the Barth.
Because that is what I intended when I put the plastic down and knocked the 2x4s together to act as a damn.

But is smells bad.
Yea.

How long will it smell bad?
It will continue to smell until it evaporates.

The neighbors above us are complaining.
Do you like them?
No.
Look if we let the stuff run down the street it will go into the storm drains, it will dry out in a day or so. Do you think we have a problem?
Good point. The wind blows away from our house I never smelled it. Would you like to check out the new marinade I made for the steaks?
Sure.



This week or maybe next week:

Order Camshaft.

The no-oil-squirt things look cool, is that $10.00 each? Huuum $40.00 a side, well it is full of low rent oil that needs to be changed. We’ll see.

I wonder if there is anything else I need?



This weekend:

Mix up several batches of TSP and finish cleaning what the degreaser left behind.

Rust stopper primer on everything. At least two coats.

I have used the following on the Barth:

Lock tight stuff. It turns the rust black and I think it works OK but it needs at least two coats. Some parts I did with one coat have rusted even with a coat of paint on top. I thought I did a careful job but I guess not. The entry steps that were very badly rusted I used this stuff, did a second coat; they rusted again. After they rusted again, it was a few weeks I put on a couple more coats, there is no top coat and no indication of additional rust. The steps have not rusted again and the paint thickness is not real heavy. I think I will use this stuff on the parts of the frame I can get to and follow the same approach. Two or more coats spaced over a couple of weeks.

Red rust stopper paint from Home Despot. This stuff appears to work well but it works best with thick, heavy coats. I used it on the steel boat in salt water and on some frame parts on the front of the Barth. It sticks real well to less than clean surfaces and even without a top coat I see no signs of rust.

Ospho, I have not used this stuff in years but a friend gave me some he had left at his place I will use it on the oil pan and then coat the pan with a couple of coats of the home despot stuff, thick coverings on the oil pan are not a problem; there are no bearing surfaces or parts that slide over like the suspension parts.

Trailer Coat. A very costly two part offering I have used; this stuff is sold in boat stores. Not only is it costly it does not work worth a sh-t. I won’t be using it on Barth. Maybe as a barrier coat if I do the decks on the boat as it does wear well and the two part deck paint will not lift it. It just came off when I used it in the bilge after we let some water sit there; Ok water and oil mixed together; you can't just pump this gunk over the side. Well in the U.S. you can't; don't ask me about the offshore waters in Mexico. I think I will use the Lock tight stuff in the bilge when I redo them next year, it did not come off my very rusty entry steps and they have been in the weather (read wet) for two years.


The following weekend:

We’ll see. If the painting is done then I can start assembly. I will more than likely have a shopping list, hoses and the like so final assembly will more than likely be the following weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:
Bill would you suggest Summit or is there a place in town that may have a good price on a high volume pump? Is there a brand you perfer? Does anyone else have a brand they suggest? Steel or aluminum?

I used a cast iron pump that starts with M. Milodon or Moroso, I forgot. Got it from Performance Automotive Wholesale. They are local, with two SFV locations. One in Chatsworth and one on Ventura blvd. Or used to. Edelbrock sells an aluminum one that tested well in Trailer Life ten years ago in a Grapevine test. These pumps are nothing new, however, as I have always had my pumps made with cast iron impellers rather than the sheet metal abominations some rebuilders use. Some shop up in Santa Maria started the commercial marketing of hi cap pumps and many followed, as it was a good thing.

quote:

Can I use the impact wrench to pull the bolt on the Harmonic dampener

Yes

quote:

will this bugger up the crank bearings?

Nope

quote:

Suggestions on a brand or a place to get the CAM?

This is like religion or politics. Everyone has an opinion on cams. Even guys with lots of experience don't all agree. My choices might not be right for you. My cam guys have always been Joe Mondello and Jack Engle. I worked on Jack's Comanche 400 way back when and I got to do some of his testing with my jet boat, as a jet drive with a digital tach is a water dyno. I settled on lift at .050 specs of 204 and 214 for heavy RV use. Jack is retired, but I suspect the company still sells a similar cam. Edelbrock uses the 204 and 214 spec for their small block performer cam, but uses a hotter cam for their big block performer. I think the hotter cam is unsuitable for RV use. I had one once, and went back to lower duration. The cam was free, but I spent way too much work to confirm what I suspected. PAWs cams used to be made by the same company that ground Edelbrocks, (maybe Wolverine?), and they offered a 204/214 cam that I used in an Olds tow car and a Chev PU. I haven't bought a cam in maybe 6 or 8 years, so my info might not be up to date, so talk to others. Racers have opinions, but you gotta talk to them about their tow vehicles, not their racers. DO NOT listen to any young kid with a hot rod. They are coming from a different place. You might also listen to 4WD people. They are pretty squared away on torque cams. Sallee Chevrolet has an Extreme 4X4 454 with a Comp Cams 4X4 cam that specs out to 206/212. Same ballpark. Buy a PAW catalog and study the cam choices.

My Geraghty book is long gone, but maybe Roy will add to this. John's opinion is always worthwhile, and, knowing this, I paid him dearly for his advice and dyno time, and it was always money well spent.

quote:

I do not plan to go back into this area for a long while so the two piece one sounds like it just offers one more place to leak.

Yup

quote:

When time and money allow I’ll do the exhaust and intake manifold , at the same time I will do the distributor updating.

A cam replacement usually requires removal of the intake manifold to replace the lifters. (See later post for addendum) (New cams like new lifters) You will defer spending by doing the intake manifold later, but you could be doing the same work again, including buying gaskets and distributor jiggery-pokey.

As for spilled stuff, just two words: Kitty Litter. I keep the used up stuff in a sealed plastic bucket and take it down the street to a toxic waste site which is open on Saturday afternoons. I am sure there is one in your area. Pierce College, maybe.

My Geraghty book is dog-eared, but I've still got it. John was cagey about printing specific recommendations, except he loved the Edelbrock Performer manifold. His cam advice followed Bill H's, i.e., avoid advice from hot rodders, they want high horsepower at high revs. We need stump-pulling torque at lower revs. According to Geraghty, even some cams sold for RV use then, moved the torque curve higher than was desirable.

I can't add to Bill's camshaft advice, except this: Follow the manufacturer's recommendations to the letter on pre-lubing & breaking in the cam. No matter how highly polished the new surfaces appear to be, there are microscopic imperfections that get polished off in the first few minutes of running. Those first few minutes are critical in getting the lifters & the cam to work together corrctly for longevity. The cam grinders, hopefully, have learned how how to do it right.

Re: valve adjustment - Bill H suggests using old rocker covers with a hole in the top to keep the oil spray down. I wonder if a pair of junkyard rocker covers would be a better investment than the pricey "rocker stoppers." Might be worth checking this out. Bill might even run up there & show you how it's done, a la N.Y. Bill's thought about the Tom Sawyer syndrome.

quote:

I can't add to Bill's camshaft advice, except this: Follow the manufacturer's recommendations to the letter on pre-lubing & breaking in the cam. No matter how highly polished the new surfaces appear to be, there are microscopic imperfections that get polished off in the first few minutes of running. Those first few minutes are critical in getting the lifters & the cam to work together corrctly for longevity. The cam grinders, hopefully, have learned how how to do it right.

Pre-lubing cams and babbit bearings was the only useful application of STP I ever heard of...surely there are better alternatives nowadays.

You guys sure make learning easy, thank you.


Ok this weekend is painting and shopping.

1) Intake manifold. Shoot I thought the lifters were under the valve covers. Now be nice. I'll pick up or order a new manifold.

2) The need to replace the lifters is now very clear and I will order them with the cam.

3) Get cam.

So as I see it at the moment I do a cold adjustment when I put the cam in, run things for a bit until the engine warms up and then do the final adjustment with the engine running. Boy I really do need to buy a manual. This is far different than the V.W. and BMW engines I have built in the past.

Oh well as I say you guys make learning easy and the outcome is never in question. Boy I would have done some really dumb stuff if I had not been given the benefit of all your help.

Thanks:

Timothy

P.S. The X muffler looks like a good deal. What will they think of next?

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:

1) Shoot I thought the lifters were under the valve covers. Now be nice. I'll pick up or order a new manifold.

2) The need to replace the lifters is now very clear and I will order them with the cam.

3) Get cam.

So as I see it at the moment I do a cold adjustment when I put the cam in, run things for a bit until the engine warms up and then do the final adjustment with the engine running. Boy I really do need to buy a manual. This is far different than the V.W. and BMW engines I have built in the past.

Oh well as I say you guys make learning easy and the outcome is never in question. Boy I would have done some really dumb stuff if I had not been given the benefit of all your help.

Thanks:

Timothy

My memory just kicked in, and I recollect there used to be a tool that would pull out lifters without removing the heads. It went down where the pushrod goes and grabbed the lifter by the snap ring. I had fair success with a borrowed one on pretty fresh engines, but less luck on an old engine. Varnish. I used a product called Carb Aid to soften the varnish, but that took a day or to of constant application, as it was very volatile. Perhaps the Red Line fuel cleaner would do a better job. I didn't know about RL back then. That might be worth pursuing if you want to defer the expense of buying a manifold.

Oh yeah, before the new lifters are installed, they like to be primed. That consists of putting them upright in a loaf pan of oil and a pushrod in a file handle or #3 Phillips screwdriver is used to pump the air out of the lifters and the oil in. It is pretty easy with air, and gets progressively more difficult as the air leaves. The bubbles also talk to you.

Buy a chevy oil primer. It allows an electric drill to turn the oil pump through the distributor hole after a cam replacement. Use a drill with an additional grip on the side.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

Pre-lubing cams and babbit bearings was the only useful application of STP I ever heard of...surely there are better alternatives nowadays.

I would never use STP for a cam pre lube. Most cams come with the best pre lube, as the grinder does not want any failures.

gm sells a good moly pre lube at your chevy parts counter. The dist gear likes a good moly pre lube, too. It is a shame to see the dist drive gear on a cam go bad and have to replace the whole cam. Don't ask.

This is a little controversial, but many cam grinders and engine builders used to recommend only non-detergent oil in an engine with a new cam. I still follow that, but I do know that many new high performance engines come filled with synthetic oil, so maybe things are different now. Again, follow the cam grinder's reccy.

There are several uses for STP. One is to quieten down a used car prior to sale. In high school in the fifties, most of us had old, loose cars, and STP most definitely made the winter start knock quieter. I haven't used it since, but it used to have a good rep at reducing oil burning.

STP (polyisobutylene) was one of the first viscosity index improvers (VII). At colder temps, the molecules were tightly coiled, and so acted like "thin" oil. As temps increased the coils expanded, and it acted like "thick" oil, thus inhibiting the thinning of oil as temp increased.

Why it wasn't a "miracle cure" is that the uncoiled molecules were so large that they were physically sheared going through the oil passages, and lost the VII characteristic. That in itself wouldn't have been a killer, but the broken pieces tended to congregate as carbonaceous (gritty) deposits in the ring belt and valve stem areas....in the old days, it didn't matter so much because the oil was changed (supposedly) every 1K miles, and naturally, we cleaned the filter in kerosene and blew it dry.

Anyway, STP was useful in providing initial lubrication for new bearings and camshaft - motor oil would have been preferred, but much would drip out by the time reassembly was done and the oil pump could take over.

As far as running the engine with a new cam on straight mineral oil, I'd be very skeptical, as API specs have a test for cam lobe and follower scuffing for the S-x rated motor oils; additives to prevent that have to be present.

Rusty, I think you're right on the modern detergent oils. I am a little behind on that. Some grinders didn't like multigrade oils, either, but that seems to have gone away, too. GM used to sell an Engine Oil Supplement that many cam grinders recommended. I think some of the cam grinders are still a little behind in saying not to use a synthetic oil on a new cam. I wonder if the new engines that have synthetic are run in at the factory on dino oil. There is a lot of difference of opinion/folklore out there about not using syn on a new engine, let alone a new cam.

I suspect the cam grinders are (probably rightfully so) unwilling to change what has always worked for them. The problem is that recommendation like straight mineral oil (What? No anti-oxidants or anti-foam agents?) may be fine for their cam, but not for other engine components.

Frankly,the only time I've ever thought that "straight mineral oil" was worthwhile was after a chromed jug replacement on an airplane, and then only for 25-100 hrs.

IMHO, the most critical aspect is to use the cam grinder's pre-lube, & follow his instructions for startup & initial break-in. From that point on, I'd say use whatever motor oil is your personal preference, as long as it meets your engine mfrs. SAE specs.

Bill's point about priming the oil pump & the new lifters before start up is another good one.

Since I haven't done a cam change in a while, I poked around a little and found Lunati, a division of Holley recommending straight non-detergent oil for a new cam. They also say no synthetic for 5000 miles. This is interesting because Lunati is not one of the old time cam grinders, so they don't fit the profile of old grinders not keeping up with the times.

JE Pistons, a respected name, says only non-detergent for break in. They also say no additives, which conflicts with many cam grinders.

Popular Hot Rodding Magazine featured an engine buildup that specified ND oil. The builder seems to have established his bona fides.

Of course, there are a number of builders who recommend detergent oil, too. And more who say no synthetic. I haven't researched the synthetic thing on roller vs flat tappet lifters.

I'm not taking a position here, just sharing where my curiosity took me. I think the safest thing to do with a new cam is get a specific recommendation from the grinder, buy that oil and keep the receipt in case of a problem.

See how easy the trap was laid? You take off the radiator and now your doing a minor engine rebuild.

If you have the oil pan off then replace the oil pump!

Your toe bone connected to your foot bone,
Your foot bone connected to your ankle bone,
Your ankle bone connected to your leg bone,
Your leg bone connected to your knee bone,
Your knee bone....

Well at least I'm not spending my money! Oh, and Bill H, I bit me tongue way back...

Bill N.Y.