HI , I HAVE A 21 FT BARTH WITH A 454 CHEVY THAT EATS STARTERS, THE BENDIX HOUSING BREAKS FREQUENTLY , ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS? THANKS ,JONTMARK

Be sure ignition timing is correct and the centrifugal and vacuum advance are free and working correctly.

Is the starter properly shimmed for correct gear lash?

Are the moounting bolts the proper ones?

Did you know your Caps Lock key is on?

On my Barth after the engine warms up the started bogs out before it cranks, I wonder about this gear lash adjustment.

How do you check and adjust the gear lash?

Timothy

Back in the old days Big Block "re-manufactured" starters had shims included in the box, along with the proper NEW long, knurled mounting bolts (2). The starter gear must align squarely (roundly??) with the flywheel, thus the shims. Usually, the inside -block- side is too close to the mounting pad and requires one or more thin shims. Has the third (short) bolt mounting been discarded by someone before you got it? Is the mounting pad clean? Is the starter rebuilt or just cleaned up?? Many variables. Good luck.
Disclaimer: this is from memory, prior to ca 1980.

quote:

Originally posted by timnlana:
On my Barth after the engine warms up the started bogs out before it cranks, I wonder about this gear lash adjustment.

How do you check and adjust the gear lash?

Timothy

Does it make a nasty noise when it does start hot? The hot start problem suggests tight clearance. Try shimming the outside bolt first. If no help, shim both bolts. That is the trial and error method.

Absent any malfunction, I use one of three methods to check clearance.

1. Listen

2. install the starter without the solenoid and manually engage the pinion. Measure the clearance from the top of a tooth of the starter pinion to the bottom of the well beetween the gear teeth of the flywheel. I use a large paper clip straightened out, but any where from .020 to .040 is good.

3. Disconnect the starter from the solenoid connection and use a jumper to energize the solenoid to engage the pinion. Then measure.

"After the engine warms up the starter bogs before it cranks," sounds more like the generic hot-start problem with 454s which is increased electrical resistance resulting from heat soak. The usual cure is to first make sure all the wiring & connections are perfect, then add a remote solenoid and/or extra heat shielding.

IMHO, unless it's so bad you have to let the engine cool down before it will start, it's only a minor annoyance. If it gets that bad, it's probably time for a new starter anyway.

Roy has a good point there. Since the original post got me on the binding train, I forgot about the heat situation. Missed the forest for the trees.

A digital voltmeter will tell you a lot there. If your battery voltage drops lower when it is hot-bogging, the problem is probably mechanical.

There are high heat solenoids available, GM 1114458. Exhaust heat can take its toll on the Bakelite terminal housing. Also make sure they use a Belleville spring nut on the small starting terminal. Nut is Delco 2030900 and flat washer 131015. Torque to 12 to 17 in lbs. The start terminal is long and grows when it gets hot, loosening the connection. That is why chevvies are notorious for not starting when hot, but OK when cooler. A heat shield is a good idea, tool. So is a direct ground cable from battery to a starter mounting bolt. Be sure the starter mounting bolts are the shouldered GM bolts, not hardware store bolts, which can allow the starter to misalign and bite you later.

Be sure that the threads and nuts match on the large terminals. Some solenoids have metric threads, which will accept US nuts, but not a good fit, and could bite you later.

Maybe pull the end cap and inspect brush length, too.

Heat soak can be minimized by an idle cool down before shutting off. An electric puller fan with a thermostat will kick in and run right after shut down and run until most heat is dissipated.

There is an article in Motorhome magazine July 2006 page 86 about a new starter motor made to resist heat soaking.Power Master Starter (800-862-7223)
powermastermortorsports.com......When talking to them, their techs seem to know how to fix your starter problems. I have a 454 engine and my model # is 9500 about $200.00. Sorry I can't post the article(I don't know how)

"THE TOY" 88 33'Regal SE Coach #3448

quote:

Originally posted by carlflack:
There is an article in Motorhome magazine July 2006 page 86 about a new starter motor made to resist heat soaking.Power Master Starter (800-862-7223)

"THE TOY" 88 33'Regal SE Coach #3448

Those are good starters. However, if you have problems on the road, parts to repair it will be difficult. Your only option is likely to be a complete replacement.

GM also makes a mini starter. It is powerful enough to start the 502 in my Barth and the high compression rumpety-rump 502 in my boat. Individual parts like solenoids, brushes, etc, are fairly easy to find if you have a breakdown on the road. Most auto electric shops and many auto parts stores have what you will need.

Gentlemen:

Thank you for the tips. Bill H. I will try the components you suggest.

I put in a new starter last yeat, there was a small heat shield that I put back.

The wires were.... We'll just say it was time to adress the wires and I did so. All the wires are new the contacts are new the wires are also in a heat resistant woven cover.

So I did all theses things and there was no improvement.

I'll run down Bill list and see if things impove.

quote:

There are high heat solenoids available, GM 1114458. Exhaust heat can take its toll on the Bakelite terminal housing.
Also make sure they use a Belleville spring nut on the small starting terminal. Nut is Delco 2030900 and flat washer 131015. Torque to 12 to 17 in lbs.

Oh boy part numbers, thanks Bill I'll get this stuff.

quote:

The start terminal is long and grows when it gets hot, loosening the connection.
That is why chevvies are notorious for not starting when hot, but OK when cooler.

I have not checked the connection when the engine is warm. I will do so.

quote:

A heat shield is a good idea, too.

I have the chevy one, maybe I will look at a little redesign.....later.

quote:

So is a direct ground cable from battery to a starter mounting bolt.

Good point Bill, the grounds on the Barth were less than stellar, while there are lots of new cables this is one that is well advised, I'll add this first and see what change we see.

quote:

Be sure the starter mounting bolts are the shouldered GM bolts, not hardware store bolts, which can allow the starter to misalign and bite you later.

The bolts are chevy bolts as you describe, I even got new ones, they match what was in there and I stuck the old ones into the goodie box.



So I think the starter motor is lined up and will continue in the electrical area.

Thanks again:

Timothy

quote:

I put in a new starter last yeat, there was a small heat shield that I put back.

WHERE did you get the starter?

Mike

I got the starter at a local auto parts store, not a chain store.

I asked for the "Best, Heavy Duty" starter they had, it came off the shelf. It is not a "Mini" starter or anything fancy like that.


If you wish I can look and see what name is on it.


Timothy

As far as heat shields go, the solenoid needs the most protection, but there are aftermarket shields that protect both the starter and the solenoid. SUMMIT has them.

Another advantage of the mini starters is the increased clearance between the starter and the exhaust.

The reason I asked WHERE you got the starter is because there are two versions of replacement starters at NAPA. The cheaper one is the 'repaired' one and the more $ one is the 'rebuilt' one. To NAPA, (and I suspect other chains that use the same rebuilders) 'repaired' means their supplier tried to figure out what was wrong with a defective starter and just replace what's necessary to get it working again - usually also replace bearings as a matter of course. A 'rebuilt' one means they are supposed to gut the cylinder and replace everything inside - just about like having a new starter.

Starters that have a heat soak problem and are returned to the rebuilder usually work when cold and wind up back on the shelf as a 'repaired' starter with new bearings and a wash job. If they wind up in a cool environment, they work fine. If they wind up in an enclosed hot environment with frequent restarts - they wind up back at the rebuild shop for another try.

I had 3 of the NAPA 'cheap' versions as I traveled cross-country in my previous coach before the local NAPA guy explained what I was really buying. The more expensive version, a heat blanket that wrapped around the starter and a remote solenoid kit cleaned up the act completely. Went several years with no more problem. Also, every time I stuck in a starter, the shims required were different. Fortunately, each came with a couple of shims and I had a bunch on hand.

Sometimes, a low voltage to the starter is blamed on heat soak. The remote solenoid kit I mentioned is available to implement a Ford starter relay along with some new wiring between the battery, relay and starter to give the starter the voltage it deserves. Even helps when the starter is on its way to becoming a heat soak problem. Try

http://www.maliburacing.com/starter_solenoid.html

for an explanation.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Relative:
Sometimes, a low voltage to the starter is blamed on heat soak. The remote solenoid kit I mentioned is available to implement a Ford starter relay along with some new wiring between the battery, relay and starter to give the starter the voltage it deserves. Even helps when the starter is on its way to becoming a heat soak problem. Try


Mike

I believe GM started installing that relay in April of 78. At least, that is the date on the bulletin I have. Copy on request.

Some P30s will sulk if you put in a Ford relay.