I am considering a 28 foot Royal, P-30 chassis, with a 454. Engine has the Banks Power Pac for added 79 HP.

I will often pull a 17 ft horse trailer, maybe 4000 pounds gross weight.

So, My questions: Anyone know the rated output of the stock 454? I would like to know the total output now with the Power pack. I am guessing 325 to 350 HP.

And, what do you 28 foot owners think about pulling this trailer. I am in the Pacific NW, lots of mountains.

I pull the horse trailer now with a F250 Diesel, pre power stroke, engine output is 185 HP. Not enough!

Hi John,

Your going to see 340 hp at 2800 rpms with the 454 + the Banks specs. Your most important concern is the torque which will approach 500 ft/lb with the Banks. You will not be speeding over the mountains but you will make it. Make sure your cooling system is in good order.

You say your horse trailer is 4000 lbs. Does this include the horse, tack etc? I would also go to a certified welder and have your hitch upgraded to 5000 lbs. It is now rated at 3500 unless it has been modified before. This will cost under $250.00 and then you are covered if "God forbid" you were in an accident and the hitch was in question.

Also make sure (and I am sure you have) that you have a very good brake system on your trailer and that they work well. When you are on the borerline, stopping is of equal importance. What goes up must come down.

The LE8, 81 to 86 carb had 230 hp and 360 lb ft torque.
The LT9, 87 to 95 TBI had 230 hp and 385 lb ft torque.

According to Thorley, whose figures I am more inclined to believe than Bank$, their headers will add about 50 ft lbs torque across the band and about 50 hp at 4000 RPM. Those figures are for a TBI engine, but should be similar with a carb engine. That will total to about 440 ft lbs torque and 270 hp at 4000 RPM. This depends on how well you read the graph in their catalog.

I would have serious reservations about any claim of 340 hp at 2800 rpm. I have a non-smog HT502 in mine, and it makes only 270 hp at 2800 without headers.

That said, either Bank$ or Thorley will improve power and torque, and will let the engine run cooler. I have used Thorleys on several vehicles, with great success.

Bill, as always you are absolutely correct as always. the GM specs on the 454 is 252hp and 400 ft/lb Banks claims 79hp and 86 ft/lb. Everyone I have ever talked to who had the Banks has told me it really "kicks".

I don't want to get in to dueling specs, here, but where did those figures come from?

I am suspicious of Bank$ claims. My checkbook is eveidence of too much dyno time for comfort. I believe I would be ahead if I had bought my own dyno. I am not against headers, Bank$ or others, but I have found their people to be more focused on sales than truth. This particularly applies to their incredibly incompetatant shills at RV and hot rodding shows and on the phone. The only dissatisfaction I have run across with Bank$ owners is the cost. And most of them were proud of how much they paid for the Bank$. I will resist social commentary here.

I even had a Gale Banks built twin turbo engine in one of my boats, so I am not an anti-Bank$ partisan. Ran like Jack the Bear. I believe his expertise lies more in turbo engines than normally aspirated.

But his operation nowadays is more heavily tilted toward sales than truth or accuracy.

In addition, I harbor a suspicion that the Tri-Wye design is superior for low and mid range torque.

I would love to stage a hill climb between Banks and Tri-Wye equipped Motor Homes.

Bill, when you buy Thorley headers, for your or my coach I belive the 303Y's are the ones for our coach. What is the size of the exhaust pipe that attaches to these headers. These sell for $353.90 at Promax.

The Banks systems comes with the Ram-Air intake, the headers and the entire exhaust system.


Now Bill, this is not a debate because I am not even pretending to know anything. I am aware that the Banks system costs alot and I know that they have a good sales system. I have talked with them a few times and they have actually been very helpful and they didn't seem too pushy. I am a saleman by trade so I don't hold that against anyone.

When you buy the Thorley Headers don't you then have to buy the air intake, exhaust pipes, muffler etc. from someone else to get the whole effect.

Yup, the banks are a complete package. If you are not a do it yourselfer, the complete package could be attractive.

But regardless of whether you do Bank$ or Thorleys, I would recommend an H pipe before the mufflers.


Thorley 303y is currently $339.99 at www.summitracing.com

However, if you have AIR, as most of us do, the 303YS would be the one to have. Thorley will sell you a heat riser valve that fits their collectors, but, unless you drive in Minnesota winters, you really do not need it.

I have Thorleys on my present coach, as well as on my previous coach. Also have Thorleys on our pickup.

Gibson also make a complete system including the exhaust pipe and muffler. I had these installed on my '88 couple of weeks ago. Complete package was a shade over $1000. Fits like a glove. Went from a dual system to a large single. Havn't had time to test the system yet, but probably will next weekend. Used PB Blaster on head bolts and all came off with no problems.

[This message has been edited by kc_rusty (edited September 20, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by kc_rusty (edited September 20, 2003).]

Darn , waited too late, the 28 Royal was sold on Sept. 18th. at less than I was going to offer!!

Anyway, the trailer is about 4000 pounds weight loaded, tamdem axles, brakes on all wheels, brakes and everything else on the trailer is in excellent shape. I have been pulling trailers for over 30 years, so I know all the tricks such as sway bars, load level "equilizers", good brakes, etc.

RE Barth Coaches: I am looking for a nice 25 to 28 foot Coach, enough engine to pull the trailer. We have the $$ and are ready to buy now, just gotta find the "right one".

I am a machinist/mechanic, so doing the mods for increased cooling, maintaining the drive train, etc. is a piece of cake.

Bill H, I love your posts, keep up the good work.

John, the answer to your original question is subjective.

Myself, I drive no faster than 62 mph, but if I can't climb all grades at 62, I don't have "enough" power. However, I am informed by the Minister of Finance that there are insufficient funds for 62 up all hills.

So, with some budgetary considerations in mind, I would say that a "warmed" 454 will be as good as you're gonna get without a big big expenditure. In your price range, you are going to choose between a Ford or Chevy chassis. It is easier to make a Chevy faster than a Ford. I know this from boats more than motor homes. But a Ford 460 is no slouch, and I wouldn't turn down the right coach if it had a 460. Those Cobra Jet heads can really liven up a 460.

Anyway, do long-tube headers, Flowmasters, and an H pipe, dryer vent tubing cold air induction and a Performer intake manifold. MSD 6A with remote timing control. Bite the bullet and send your carb to C&J Engineering in Whittier CA. If you are lucky enough to find a coach with two tanks, keep one filled with hi octane gasoline for hills. A cam with 204/214 specs at .050" would be nice, but the radiator has to come out for that.

I have removed the wire mesh flash suppressor from the inside of my air cleaner, but sadly, made no before and after measurements. It was removed to allow a shorter air cleaner element to compensate for the Performer high rise manifold.

And give serious thought to a Gear Vendors overdrive. Second overdrive is a delight on hills. Hey, it's only money.

According to a test in my files, one MH started a 6% hill (7000 feet)at 50 mph and crested at 43 mph and falling.

Added cold air intake, crossover pipe and performance mufflers and crested at 48 mph and falling.

Added Thorley headers, crested at 53 mph and still accelerating.

Added Gear Vendors od and crested at 58 and still accelerating.

I put a crate ht502 in mine, and tow a 4Runner that weighs over 4000, and still don't get up all the hills at 62, but, like the people in Kansas City, I've "gone about as fur as I can go". Well, maybe a blower.

BTW, my boat has a 502 that has pulled 618 (or 624, can't remember which) hp on the dyno, but it is a little too radical for a motor home.

I strongly recommend a trailer brake controller that lets you control the trailer brakes independently if desired. But you probably know that already.

How about a lighter trailer or lighter horses?

Bill H, thanks for the insight. My last trailer puller was a 79F250 4x4 that I yanked the 400 and put in a bored 460, cammed, headers, Weiand intake, Holly 750, and a few other things. Pulled the horse trailer as fast as I dared, even up the long mountain grades in the Cascade mountains in Washington. The 92 F250 4x4 Diesel I now have is a dissapointment: Pre Power Stroke, 185 HP, nice milage, but a poor puller.

Back in my younger days I was a serious Chevy performance guy, small blocks and 454's. So, pumping up either a 454 or a 460 is no problem for me.

Next purchase after a Barth coach will be an all aluminum horse trailer. Present trailer is a Circle J, steel, wood floor (2x6's), can you say heavy????

I don't need the HP in a Barth coach for driving fast, just for pulling the trailer up the hills. My last speeding ticket was in 1969, learned the lesson a long time ago. Now punch in the cruise control for a mile or two under the speed limit and never worry about the troopers.

You guessed it, my trailer brake controller allows independent control.

My guess is most 454's have the HEI coil in the distributor cap. What is your best recommendation for replacing this mess, for better spark AND getting the coil away from the engine heat? If my memory serves me (Summit catalog is in the shop) the MSD unit you mention is a firewall mount? Excuse my ignorance, have not tweaked a chevy for several years.

Another question: In all the specs on Barth coaches for sale, the 25 to 30 ft Regals I am looking for, no one mentions cruise control. Is cruise control a common option on this range Barths? I hope so.

Bill H, thanks for the insight. My last trailer puller was a 79F250 4x4 that I yanked the 400 and put in a bored 460, cammed, headers, Weiand intake, Holly 750, and a few other things. Pulled the horse trailer as fast as I dared, even up the long mountain grades in the Cascade mountains in Washington. The 92 F250 4x4 Diesel I now have is a dissapointment: Pre Power Stroke, 185 HP, nice milage, but a poor puller.

Back in my younger days I was a serious Chevy performance guy, small blocks and 454's. So, pumping up either a 454 or a 460 is no problem for me.

Next purchase after a Barth coach will be an all aluminum horse trailer. Present trailer is a Circle J, steel, wood floor (2x6's), can you say heavy????

I don't need the HP in a Barth coach for driving fast, just for pulling the trailer up the hills. My last speeding ticket was in 1969, learned the lesson a long time ago. Now punch in the cruise control for a mile or two under the speed limit and never worry about the troopers.

You guessed it, my trailer brake controller allows independent control.

My guess is most 454's have the HEI coil in the distributor cap. What is your best recommendation for replacing this mess, for better spark AND getting the coil away from the engine heat? If my memory serves me (Summit catalog is in the shop) the MSD unit you mention is a firewall mount? Excuse my ignorance, have not tweaked a chevy for several years.

Another question: In all the specs on Barth coaches for sale, the 25 to 30 ft Regals I am looking for, no one mentions cruise control. Is cruise control a common option on this range Barths? I hope so.

John, sounds like you are on the road to romance. The aluminum trailer is a Good Thing. Do you pack with the horses or what? My hiking and hunting partner has Llamas as packers. Lighter than horses.

As far as the ignition, 454s had HEI since 1976. The in-cap location of the HEI coil is not a problem that I know of. There are remote mount coil set-ups out there, but they are aimed at higher rpm service, where size is a factor with a hotter coil. At any rate, your fears of engine heat hurting the coil should be assuaged a bit by the fact that a good set of headers will lower doghouse temperatures considerably. The only coil failure I have had (at 9 on Sunday night in the middle of the desert on the way to a Barth Rally) was a no-name aftermarket coil put in by the previous owner's mechanic. I carry a spare, anyway. I am presently using a Summit coil, but any good high performance aftermarket coil from a reputable supplier should be OK. The stock Delco coil is good, too. It poops out about where (RPM) the engine poops out, so I doubt whether the high performance coils are all that useful on a motor home.

The MSD 6A is indeed a firewall mounted unit, but it still uses a coil in the cap. My observations have been the weakest part of the HEI is the tendency of rust dust to distribute itself inside the cap and cause flashover and the resultant misfire. The counterweights and springs have to be kept clean and lubed, lest they spread the Red Death or freeze up. I prefer MSD cap and rotor, too. Good spiral core wires and Thermo Tek sleeves. The virtue of the MSD 6A is that it delivers a Multiple Spark Discharge at low and mid rpm. This assures more complete combustion, with the resultant better power and mileage. They have been particularly useful for me on engines that were too rasty to run well at lower speeds, but they can help any engine. And, of course, you get to use the adjustable timing control while you drive. I run a lot of advance at cruise, and back it off until detonation stops up the hill, adjusting for temperature, grade, load and octane.

Dave's observations on trailer hitches is worth heeding. My coach had the worst bunch of rat turds I have ever seen where weld beads should have been. I wouldn't pull a steer out of a bog with that hitch. I KNOW Barth didn't do that.

As for cruise control, my Barth, as well as previous coaches, had cruise control. None worked by the time I got them. I am an electronics tech, but declined to bother to hunt down the information to repair them. Just bought a new set up. The old ones used the speedo cable as the speed sensor, and were mounted in engine compartment, where heat killed them. Being aftermarket, they also made speedo cable replacement a sourcing problem. Having custom cables made can be as expensive as the new CCs. The ones on the market today are electronic and use ignition pulses as speed input, or a magnet pickup on the driveshaft, delivering a pulse to a proximity switch or Hall sensor. I have put several of these on different vehicles, and they work far better than the older ones.

HOWEVER, most cruise controls will not pull the throttle hard enough to get up more than a small hill without input from the gas pedal when towing. This is even true with my 454 pickup towing a 4000 lb boat and trailer. This is further complicated by the fact that they have vacuum servos, and there is not much manifold vacuum at high throttle settings found in motor home hill climbing.

That said, back in the 70s or 80s, I put a cruise control on a class C with a 360, (anyone ever heard of a Newport?) and increased my boat towing mileage by over one MPG, so they are definitely worth the trouble. I would not be without one, but the lack of one or a non-working one would not be a deal breaker.

BTW,want to give us some numbers on the one you missed out on?

Pictures?

Take your time and find the one that is right for you, because you might fall in love with it and keep it forever. I have. Being a mechanic, you can deal with a lot, but the layout is harder to change. I will also say that the longer Barths had the heavier brakes. This, as well as a longer wheelbase, can be an important safety consideration when towing a heavy trailer. I have a 30 tag, which is rare, but there were a lot of 32 or 34 tags made. The tag axle really stabilizes the P30 chassis, and with air bags on the drive as well as the tag axle, you can really tune things for hitch weight. Even more so if you carry a motorcycle or a couple of trail bikes. There is another safety advantage to a tag. Most accidents involving a trailer involve a los of traction on the rear axle of the tow vehicle-you know, the jacknife. A tag axle adds 50% more traction back there. Well, actually less, as the tires are not as heavily loaded, but you get the idea. And, of course, added braking. They all carry the same stuff inside, so the extra weight with the longer chassis is not as much as you might think. All they add inside is a dinette and bigger closets.
And maybe a roomier throne room.