quote:

9.5:1 is on the high side for today's gas. (On the other hand, if it only knocks DOING 70 UPHILL(!) I wouldn't complain!)

I would! BTW: There is no industry-defined "pinging"; it's usually used generically to describe a combustion-chamber noise. Thenoise can come from one of three usual suspects (All of which cause ignition before desired):

Knock: Timing too far advanced for the fuel's octane rating/compression ratio

Detonation: Mixture too lean

Preignition: Caused by combustion chamber deposits that retain heat and ignite the fuel before spark ignition; pretty rare with lead-free gaso

Retarding the spark can help reduce knock, but too much retardation can accelerate exhaust valve failure unless employed intermittently. Backing off the throttle eases the vacuum advance and so retards the ignition.

That said, DaveR has his timing set just about right, although retarding it 1-2° should be done. When incipient knock occurs, the throttle should be backed off or the tranny downshifted. Note that "incipient knock" is usually NOT detectable to the untrained ear and when the knock is loud enough for the untrained ear, it must be stopped.

Thanks for the insight Rusty, so what do you think would be my best approach,
1) go with a electronic fuel injection that can control the spark.
2) try finding that sweet spot in the timing.
3) or don't be in such a hurry and take it easy in the mountains.
maby I will start another thread in tech talk.

quote:

That said, DaveR has his timing set just about right, although retarding it 1-2° should be done. When incipient knock occurs, the throttle should be backed off or the tranny downshifted. Note that "incipient knock" is usually NOT detectable to the untrained ear and when the knock is loud enough for the untrained ear, it must be stopped.

Rusty you almost never are wrong and a real source of valuable info-- but in this case vacuum "advance" is just that; advance at higher vacuum and backing out will reduce the spark knock but most likely will also advance the timing. There are a few things to look at here, first there is a total advance that should not be exceeded for all engines and someone on the internet will know what that is for this particular one, might have to join one of the ford performance groups and ask a question- google is your friend. Second is air/fuel ratio,and a "wide-band" will give you all the information that you need. Third is the distributor it's self, more than likely it was assembled for a light weight auto,not a "truck" and here you may be able to use standard gm parts for advance curve and vacuum advance. And fourth and last with high compression some form of water/meth injection may be needed, good systems can be found wherever performance turbo people are located. If it were me, I would find a for tuner and let them give you a "safe" dyno-tune, That engine is worth it. john sorry for being so long winded.

Thanks John,I would like to get to the bottom of this, I started a topic in tech talkh, with more information on my motor, anything you could add would be greatly appreciated.

Closing the throttle will retard the spark. I forgot to mention that the centrifugal advance should be checked. An electronic ignition could possibly work well.

As an aside, the worst system I ever worked on was a '71 MB 2.8L with 2xZenith carbs and ported and manifold taps and 2 diaphragms and centrifugal advance. I finally realized the performance issues were due to a thoroughly-worn distributor bearing Those were the days a mech could still buy just the bearing, not the whole distributor.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Closing the throttle will retard the spark.

??? This is counter intuitive and opposite of my experience. Whenever I back off throttle and the throttle plate closes, the vacuum gauge shows that vacuum increases… this should increase the vacuum advance and timing. Vacuum is highest with closed throttle. Manifold PRESSURE is least with throttle closed, are we talking about different things?

If I try to set the idle timing with the vacuum advance connected at idle (high vacuum), the timing is way advanced. Disconnecting the vacuum advance hose allows it to drop to the base setting. (This is the recommended way to set base timing.)

Actually, I don't do this any more since I installed the fuel injection. (It has no vacuum advance) However, there is an electrical plug which must be removed to disable the ECM advance to get the correct base idle timing.

Tuesday May,13 2014

Here's a picture, of the motor from inside, note the cut out in the floor to the left. I cut this section out with a sawzall, to give me better access to that side of the motor, to allow me to be able to grind off the heads of the header bolts.(not a pleasant job).




I spent most of the morning trying to find new radiator houses, unlike the P-30 your parts dealer will most likely not have a listing for the John Deer chassis, I drove all over Suffolk County going to truck and fleet parts stores to no avail, I finally ended up back at the Napa store I started at, and talked the manager in to letting me go in the back and see what I could match up.

Here's a side note if you have a John Deer chassis you will find it almost imposable to get parts with out the correct part # witch nobody has a listing to. Not even Freightliner who bought out John Deer Truck chassis division.

I found a complete set of parts manual off of crigslist from a women in California. That I wish I had before I started this project.



These books are worth their weight in gold to any one with this motor home chassis. If there is a way to put the information on this site, Just PM me or Bill if your reading this give me a call.

We'll its time for me to go to work.

To be continued.

I did the same thing with the P30 manual I got from ebay. If you have a scanner you can scan the pages and we can download a pdf file. I'm sure it would be GREATLY appreciated by the site members.

It is a bit tedious scanning each page. If you don't have the time and aren't using the manual, send it off to me and I can scan it and I will return it to you.

I found this parts catalog with a Google search. No cover, so I don't know if it's the same one:
http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/pdfs/PC2109.pdf

Couldn't find anything for the service guide, but the entire site seems to be password protected. That parts catalog might only be available because someone forgot to set the right permissions.

Yea that's the same one I have Quin.

Well I just spent the last 3 hrs writing a post and some how I lost it good night every one I will try again tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
Yea that's the same one I have Quinn.

Well I just spent the last 3 hrs writing a post and some how I lost it good night every one I will try again tomorrow.

Man, I hate when that happens:
It sometimes happens to me on long files. I now start the post, then I post it partway through to make sure it doesn't get lost. Then I click on the "Edit or Delete" button (lower right) to add the additional parts to the existing post and finish the job.

Great find, Quinn! I'm sure there are some owners who will be glad to see it. I did not find it in the site archives, so I put it here:

We'll have to work on getting the service manual.

Tuesday,May 13,
so their I am in the back of the store sorting through all their hoses trying to match mine. All I came up with was one hose that connects the filler neck to the top of the radiator.I ended up putting the old hoses back on. They were pliable and had no signs of cracking.

Wednesday,May 14,
Only one week left and I don't even have my headers yet. I start wiring up the motor, I get a call from my brother Robin, he tells me he's got a flight into MacArthur airport next Wednesday at 10:45am(he"s flying up to go to Indy with us),Then he asks"so how's The Barth running", I tell him "it's coming along fine, I gotta go."

Back to the wiring. The coach wiring on the Barth is it's biggest short coming. The starter solenoid is behind the passenger side head lamp and the ignition module is on the other side of the panel that the module is mounted to. Plus there is a ton of excess wire that's all tangled up with redundant connections all in a birds nest that makes it almost impossible to trace.

So I got out my wire cutters and started at it. Before I was done cutting, I had a garbage bag stuffed with wire and a ton of fusible links to splice back in.

With my new HEI distributor I really don't need the ignition module any more, but I didn't want to cut open the engine harness to remove the wiring, so I left it all intact, and you never know you might need it on a rainy day.

Well this part of the project, Tracing down all the wires, splicing in the fusible links, cleaning up all the chassis grounds all the way back to the generator, and trying to make some sort of presentable job out of it,took me all the way into Saturday.

While we are talking about wiring, in case you are wondering why I used that fire blanket to wrap my cables and hoses? After I pulled the motor, I found about 2 feet of the battery cable that went to the starter solenoid completely BARE inside the frame rail, The insulation was burnt off by the header. I can only thank the Lord my Barth didn't burn up on my way back from Georgia.

Saturday, May 17,
As I was finishing up the wiring, my wife Johanny calls,she tells me the UPS man just dropped off a big box. Finally my headers!

I run home have a bite to eat with my wife and head back. On the way back Robin calls and with his acquired southern drawl and says "well,how's that Barth running" I tell him I had to get a new set of headers and I'm on my way to put them in. I should be firing the motor up later today, he says "well alright but you better get to it, you know you gotta drive that thing out to Montauk and back before we head out to Indy" I agreed with him, and told him I'm doing the best I can.

So I get back to the Barth Its 2 0'clock. I unpack the headers and get to it, The passenger side goes right in. The drivers side is a little tight but I snake it up in place and bolt it in. Then Curve Ball!!! the shifter rod that went through the banks headers is no way going to go through or around the new Thorley Headers. I go on line and order a B&M ratchet shifter from Summit. Call it a day and go home.

Here are some more pictures,





















to be continued

Awesome! Once again I am impressed with the workmanship, the additional side projects and the photos. You have set the standard for the Ford Barth coaches!

I can totally relate to the rat's nest wiring. I rewired much of mine as I changed starter, alternator and fuel injection. The headlight wires on the Regal are really marginal, too.

Bill h's 502 trumps my 454HO, but you've got the 511 "cubic inch king" now!

Thanks again for sharing this monster project.

Thanks again Steve,This site has been so helpful and enjoyable I really look forward to going to a GTG. To meet everyone in person and get to see all the work that you all have put into your Barths. I still have a long way to go, once I get all the mechanicals out of the way.,I still have the flooring, ceiling,and paint to do. But hey it beats therpy.

Dave,
Focus, diligence, excellence!!!! I am in awe!

One thing I have read in Barthmobile, is that guys are concerned about the use of the Holley carburetor.

I'd like to refer you to Cliff Ruggles, I bought the book he wrote on Quadrajets. I've bought an extra 17085212 from ebay to try to rebuild and get going properly on my 454. In the "forum" section of http://cliffshighperformance.com/ I have read that Cliff has rebuilt Quadrajets for use on Ford 460 engines in RVs.

On the topic of knocking and pinging, at one time guys would run water injection kits. Is that done anymore?

HAPPY MOTORING!
Matt