Hi folks,

New to this site, but I thought I would post this question to you about a barth I saw on the side of the road. I did briefly contact the owner, for about 30 seconds, enough to learn that it's been sitting for about 7 years, was running perfect, has 27000 miles, and was a custom unit before it was gutted for an intended restoration.

It now needs a pile of work; pretty much every piece of rubber would have to be replaced, seals, etc etc. Here are three pics I quickly grabbed before I had to leave.

If I find anything else I'll post it, but I'm curious what you guys think of a project this size. Would it even be worth the effort?

The big question is... what's your background like? Are you a mechanic? What skill do you bring to the table? How many helpers? What's their background like?

A project of this size would be hard for most anyone. I don't know if I would attempt this. It seems that for the amount invested it might not bring a good return on it.

What does he want for it? When was the last time it was started? What was it used for before? What years is it?

I think not. Night time pictures only tell so much and what it does show isn't that impressive. Look at the animal tracks in the front. Who knows what the engine is like. Can you turn the motor over with a bar.

There are alot of valiables. I'm sure you got more to tell us. What do you want to use it for?

You guys know me I bleed Barth, but if I were to takle something like this, I think I would spend $15K on a former bus. I am guessing this is a 1988-1990, it is a wide body, which a bus would not be. Drivers side door. Probably a 275hp CAT on a Gillig chassis. Easy parts availability. If you got it running good I bet you could make a very nice coversion for $25K and if you paid less than $10K, of course you could put another $20K just in the engine and powertrain. You would probably have to do the whole thing for $40K to make it worth it. More than that, buy a bus.

Thanks for the quick response, guys, it was quite unexpected. And I wish I had more to offer in terms of information, but the guy is a ghost to get a hold of. He's always there, but just outside, or out for a second, so I can't get a straight answer.

But I'll tell you what I know, and my background. I mechanically inclined enough, to the extent that I can tear down engines and put them back together without any spare parts . However, I also have a jobber friend who could give me a reasonable price on a professional rebuild. This would be more of a project for my father, I think, and I come from a family of carpenters and general contractors. I think he'd have a hoot putting together the interior, after seeing what he's done with two truck campers and 2 boats! My mother is good at sewing and upholstery, so I am not worried about that.

From a quick evaluation of places like Dyersonline it looks like I could get most of my appliances, propane tanks, etc for around $12-14K, although that's a *really* rough estimate. I don't even know where the generator would be in this unit!

Apparently it was started once or twice a year for a while, but I don't know when that ended, and I think it may have done more harm than good. It doesn't look like the batteries have been hooked up in a while, from what I can tell. It was built as a store front, but it appears to have all of the plumbing already. Did Barth use stainless tanks for anything like fresh water? Or would that be something else? It looks like it has a shower and toilet sitting in there, but not hooked up at the present time.

The exterior looks rough, but it's just tree sap and moss that has accumulated. There doesn't appear to be any real structural damage to it. That's of course not true for the engine compartment, where all of the pulleys etc are quite rusty. Mechanically I think anything rubber would have to be replaced, belts, tires, airbags, probably slack adjusters, air lines, etc etc etc. More time than money, but time nonetheless. I am quite concerned about the Allison tranny. I would not even start this unit until I could pull the tranny and have it inspected by a professional, along with all seals replaced etc. I don't know how sitting affects the transmission. And insights?

I'd talk more, but I have a project deadline that's killing my weekend. I try to talk to this guy next week and post any updates that I have. Thanks for your insights!

Sorry, I didn't get to all your questions Bill. I think this would be used as a family motorhome if it got up and running properly. I don't think it would receive a $30K interior rebuild or anything, but just something functional that would do the job.

IS there anything I should be aware of in terms of wide-bodies? Good, bad, or just quirks?

And Dave, I agree with you. It could be 20K just to take care of the powertrain. It's tough to know what I'd offer this guy for it. I would think, with the amount of aluminum in there, it would be worth $5K just in scrap prices! (not that I would pursue that option, of course!)

EDIT: I should also include that I'm a 'research' guy myself; I don't like to get into anything unless I've learned as much as possible about the topic. I've lurked this site for quite a while and appreciated all of the advice that's available.

I guess since I'm back here I'll try a couple other questions: would a radiator that's been sitting this long be a throw-away; does anyone have any experience with an old rad. Most of the ones I've seen were corroded by salt, etc, but this passenger side-mounted one look reasonable when I peaked through the louvers. Who knows what it looks like inside though...

Sorry to be asking so many questions. I'll search more and bug you all less now

You're the only one that can tell what the "ouch factor" is. The platform is a Barth. That means you're working with good bones.

The interior and the mechanical, sound like you got that end covered. As long as you go into this with eyes wide open I would say "go for it".

The problem with "The Ghost" may be that you can't cage him. He wants to see your interest and then he may want more then it's worth. I have a hard time dealing with someone that's hard to corner. I just want it given to me straight and we'll see.

These people usually have a dozen sticks in a fire and they complete half of all projects they start. Their yards are a mess and they are usually so inclinded to believe that your sticking it to them. You really can't believe anything they say and their word is usually useless.

If this sounds like this guy then offer him a price that you think is reasonable and let him call you back. When you keep going back again and again, in their mind, it's worth something more then it really is. The only way to deal with him may be like that.

Keep in mind that he may think that he's got some type of gold there. The fact that you offered to give him a price may then spark him to call you with a counter offer. It just sounds like he's the type of guy that's like that.

I don't like to haggle. I let them tell me what they want and then I buy it or I don't. If it's not worth it then the last thing I say before I leave is "what's your bottom price". I don't want to insult someone. If I feel it's not right I just walk, I'll leave them my number and tell them to call me if they want to talk some more. This could get you a better offer right there.

This works out well dealing with a local guy. He see's that you're interested but not jumping on it. He'll usually think a day or two before calling you back with a reasonable offer.

Let's face it. It's been there for several years without anything happening to it that he may want to sell it for 5k or less. Let him know that there is alot of work involved but that you "like the looks of it." Try to get him to give you a price. Have a piece of paper or two already filled out with a dollar amount, your name and return number.

Good luck to you, keep us informed.

"the guy is a ghost to get a hold of. He's always there, but just outside, or out for a second, so I can't get a straight answer."

"Would it even be worth the effort?"

NO.

I think I might drop something on him like $3K, and see if he pulls the bobber under...

But I'm with Gunner and Bill N Y - I suspect he isn't hot to sell, and would likely think something like $25K is appropriate...

Again, the Barth is as solid as a rock but this 1984 MC9 with 60K on rebuilt powertrain is only $14K.

Thanks all for your responses. I really appreciate your insights, and I'll keep you updated when I talk to him. Dave, I have to agree with you, as I just had a chat with my father and he also saw a reasonable MCI for around $17K Canadian, certified and ready to go, so I know what the bottom line is here. I just really hate to see a good Barth rotting away in a field, so I'm gunna pursue this as far as I can. But certainly, no offer over $10K, and certainly much lower if its' not running and I can't guarantee any sort of mechanical fitness. I was already hovering around the $5K Canadian range simply because the engine, tranny, and aluminum would be worth that if parted out. So I'll work on finding him this coming week and let you know what the score is.

BillNY, I completely agree with your response. I'm the type of fellow who doesn't make an offer until I'm relatively sure I know at least, if not more, about the item in question than the person selling it. I don't relish bad surprises, but I do think that there is some potential in there.

Gunner, I'd agree with you but I know that this fellow is running a relatively large business with two stores, so I respect that getting a hold of him at work during office hours is a tough proposition. If I had his home number it would be a different story, but so far that's not been possible. And Rusty, I like the cut of your jib . $3k seems quite reasonable, as long as he doesn't immediately hang up on me. If that's the case I'll just wait another 6 months and try again! I've got nothing but time...

As an aside, I talked to a fellow who has dealt with this guy before, and apparently he was asking $30K when it was parked 7 years ago. He may see fools gold in them thar hills, so unless I can prove to him why it's not worth much as it stands right now this whole exercise will probably amount to nothing.

Thanks for all your helpful advice guys, I really appreciate it.

That's a great attitude to have. Good luck to you. Hope it works out for the Barth's sake, she sure looks lonely!

One way to look at this or any high dollar issue is; what is it *really* going to be worth once you complete this project. If something happens in your life and you need to sell this coach after you've invested a lot of time and money, what can you reasonably expect to get for it? We're in a buyers market unless your dealing in super high end goods, targeting folks that money is no object. Dig around on eBay and see what some of the nicer RV’s are actually selling for. Pretty sad, and it’s only going to get worse this summer when gas hits $3.00+ a gallon and diesel is pushing $4.00 Sorry to break the news, but this one is no where near the type of restoration project that’s for the faint of heart. You very well may be able to make it better than new, but now you're so upside down in it. So unless you want to take a loss, consider yourself adopting a child because it's going to be part of your family for a very long time . Once you determine what a *reasonable* resale value is after you get it restored, then start deducting what it's going to cost you to do what needs to be done. Add in some profit if you plan on flipping it, and that's what you will pay. Anything that has been sitting outside for extended periods, unless it's been kept in a super low humidity environment will deteriorate and need a lot of attention. Plan on some of those expensive *Got-Yah's* too. Anybody that tells you aluminum can't corrode is smoking some bad herb. Therefore look closely for hidden corrosion. Develop a comprehensive checklist either know what you're looking for, or take a compedent person with you. Point some of these things out and he may pay you to haul it off. I have been restoring airplanes and trading stocks for 35 years. Not just any kind of airplane but Beechcraft. They scream of quality and most have been reasonably well preserved and maintained over the past 50 years to the present, but like anything else there’s always the bastard child or two. We only consider projects that are highly sound to begin with. I have no desire to rebuild stuff from the ground up. That’s why they have factories. Changing an engine, a propeller, doing a nice leather interior or having a airplane stripped and painted is one thing. Drilling rivets and taking care of structural issues unless small, is another. One way or another it all costs money. My motto is; you make money when you buy something not when you sell it. Most people don't either know or want to hear the hard truth about what their pocession is really worth. NADA or the Airplane Blue Book doesn't write too many checks that I'm aware of.
Don’t overpay someone for their troubles unless you can afford to eat the cost.
Sometime you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince! That’s a life lesson to remember no matter what you’re dealing with.
Take Care and good luck,
Scott

Thanks for that response, Scott. This unit would not be flipped; I think I'd pick up a more well-renowned MCI or Prevost for that sort of project. I am intrigued with this project simply because I might pick up the bare bones for cheap, and it already appears to have a good foundation (plumbing, electrical, etc) for a conversion so I wouldn't have to completely start from the ground floor.

The one thing that I don't know much about is aluminum corrosion. I can't say that I'm a whiz with a rivet gun, so I would love some pointers on how to find aluminum corrosion, and where I should be looking. Were there any spots on any of your Barths where aluminum was prone to corrosion? I'm thinking of steel-meets-aluminum locations.

In addition, does anyone have any good books to recommend for someone relatively new to this hobby? Perhaps stuff geared to mechanically inclined individuals? There's gotta be something out there that indicates how to deal with plumbing, mating surfaces between structure and interior, etc etc. If not, one of you experienced guys should write one!

And I've heard your motto before, Scott, from Robert Kiyosaki--a fellow who's no slouch in the money department

Bus Conversions Magazine has a wealth of info on systems and how to, etc. Lots of people out there converting buses and they have the same questions as you. For other books on the subject check their links......i know that there are books written by people that have been there and done that. www.busconversions.com/ will get you started. Ain't the internet marvalous?

There's a lot of discussion here about investment value. I'll repeat what I've said a dozen times before: No RV is an investment, it is a toy. What you pay depends on how badly you want to play. Period.

If you salivate over the opportunity to save a valuable (not necessarily monetarily) artifact, and look forward to the challenge of personally restoring it, you have to decide what it's worth to you. Fair market value is always determined by negotiation between a willing buyer and a willing seller.

As to rivets, the problem areas are indeed where aluminum is mated to steel. All such areas I've found on my rig are pop riveted. Thus far I've replaced about 50, and each year there are a few more. When the heads begin to protrude I pry 'em out, drill out the back, and stick in another one.